QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

havent posted here in awhile but i really hope my avatar isnt still the mets one...

ub 10/25, this is a hand my buddy played

we ($4000) open interracial, diamondless QQ utg 6-handed to 85, utg+1 ($2700, no read) calls, button (cover, 27/21 over 80 hands) calls, and the blinds fold

FLOP (pot $290): 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

we bet 290 (he timed down and hit bet pot to get his bet in), and only the button calls

TURN (pot $870): 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

we bet $625, and he makes it 1600 straight with about 2k behind...

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- turn wtf? my gut reaction is 'how could you fold' when he has position, it's a good 2 barreling board with little history, his opponent hasn't committed many chips, and QQ is toward the very top of his utg raising range on this board.

- maybe i'm being results oriented, but with awkward (deep with button) and differing stacks, being out of position to 2 players, and the dryness of the board, i think it's a good spot to check the flop.

- turn bet? i don't like checking, and i think if you check the turn you should check the flop instead. it has many of the same advantages, except you aren't turning your hand face up 160 bb deep out of position

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

Umm betting flop is standard.

I think betting turn is standard too

Turn raise is so sick though, I don't see how we are ever ahead unless villain sucks, in which case it's an easy shove.

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
Umm betting flop is standard.

I think betting turn is standard too

Turn raise is so sick though, I don't see how we are ever ahead unless villain sucks, in which case it's an easy shove.

[/ QUOTE ]


i am not concerned with what is standard, but what is best. betting the flop is standard because just about everyone would do it, but that's just mindless autobetting, and doesn't necessarily make it best

why cant we be ahead on the turn? why does he have to suck? he hasnt committed many chips yet, yet he's forcing us to commit all ours. we could be 2 barreling light

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

stackoff, def. bet the flop, checkraise all in on the turn.

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

bobbo, agree or disagree? when he bets the turn his range is mostly comprised of monsters and (edit: very) weak made hands, and likely any flush draw with the possibly exception of NFD.

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
bobbo, agree or disagree? when he bets the turn his range is mostly comprised of monsters and weak made hands and draws.

[/ QUOTE ]
it's hard to argue with that josh, that's like saying im dealt two cards preflop and my holdings are comprised of 3high hands and pairs. (and anythingin-between)

Basically will he bet/call a weak made hand? Are we classifying hands like 9x to be a weak made hand or a marginal made hand? (Bc i'm asking if he will check say 66-TT, 9x) whereas your weak madehands will be like AJo or 44. (that's nota boat on this board right?)

not too many draws, obv he could havea flush draw.

basically 3way pot on the flop since i t's a low paired board it's hard to put him on trips, if can have it are you prepared to get stacked off here? I am

if not bet/folding the turn is fine, as is check calling the turn.

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

bet the flop. you usually have the best hand and checking doesn't make it any easier to play.

now push turn

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

bobbo, yes the hands i meant to leave out are TT, 88, A9, suited 9s. i think they'll often check for pot control. check-raising is hoping he will either bet with full intention of calling a raise (imo unlikely with 0 history and likely not much in the way of a read of hero), or bet with no plan whatsoever then talk himself into calling because hero has a flush draw.

i'd also like to know why you like folding as played. you wrote "basically 3way pot on the flop since i t's a low paired board it's hard to put him on trips, if can have it are you prepared to get stacked off here? I am" which i largely agree with (even though after overcalling on the button there are several hands with a 3 he can have), but where does that breakdown once we've bet and he's raised?

i'm going to sleep, so i'll check in the morning. thanks

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'd also like to know why you like folding as played. you wrote "basically 3way pot on the flop since i t's a low paired board it's hard to put him on trips, if can have it are you prepared to get stacked off here? I am" which i largely agree with (even though after overcalling on the button there are several hands with a 3 he can have), but where does that breakdown once we've bet and he's raised?

[/ QUOTE ]
Im saying that if you'renot prepared tostack off, you fold. And if you're planning on folding, id probably c/c or bet/fold, as hero did.

also,i think alot of people bet those hands you say dont bet for pc. (more then you think)

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

bet flop to maintain an aggressive metagame if nothing else. i like c/ring turn, but that might be results oriented.

as played i am thinking fold..

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

turn does look like a fold against sane players, theres some people against which its an easy stackoff though.

i dont like a turn c/r here too much because i feel like he's taking a lot of free cards, and most of the time will fold worse hands that he bets to a c/r (but will often call a bet)

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

Oh cmon all in

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

no one sees any merit in a flop check?

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

Josh, suppose you check the flop and one of the villains bets. Assuming that you call here, what is your plan for the remainder of the hand?

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

by checking the flop and then continuing vs a bet, you have now made your overall range stronger

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

[ QUOTE ]
no one sees any merit in a flop check?

[/ QUOTE ]

I see a merit in a turn check or turn c/r. Don't really see just checking flop. Makes playing the hand harder later on. But once we're here, I prolly fold.

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

hate checking the flop, esp on UB

turn looks like a fold, and i would bet it (i also wouldn't always fold to the raise and sometimes shove, but on paper it looks like a fold)

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

heads up maybe a flop check is okay. there's another player in the hand. you'll just get yourself all confused with a flop check.

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

I don't think you should be checking the flop with much of your range, and certainly not QQ. Turn is a fold without some player-specific read.

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

he played fine, now fold because ur always up against 99/77/33/3x

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

bet/calling and check/anything are really really bad imo, if villain has diamonds, he's a superstar

Re: QQ tough spot oop 160 bb deep
 

As played I fold turn, I doubt he gets out of line here often enough to make this a profitable\ ai