parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

It was suggested in BBV4L that I x-post this here. I wasn't aware of this forum, but clearly this is where I should have posted to begin with. It's been lightly edited for readability and grammar.

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I've seen a few great posts here about parenthood, so I wanted to share an experience with you that might generate some interesting discussion. I’m curious about whether people are nagged by a lack of meaning in their lives. If you are thinking about kids, I’m curious to know what your thinking is now. If you are a parent, how did it change you? If you chose not to have kids, where do you stand with all this?

In the months leading up the birth of my daughter, just about everyone who had the chance told me that my life was going to change. Of course they were right, but it's interesting that no one ever asserted that I was going to change. Beyond the impact my daughter has had on my sleep schedule, ability to play cards, drink, watch football, and travel - the greatest changes have all been to my personality and outlook. Before, I was a walking existential crisis. So much of my life was devoted to exploring my place in the world, and what the whole "meaning of life" is. But after she arrived, I stopped asking these questions. I'm no longer tortured by all of that. I’m satisfied. I can't say that I know definitively what the meaning of life is, but my need to ask the question of myself and the world has ceased completely.

Anyway, I have a story I'd like to share. Yesterday my daughter turned 3. In addition to the books, toys, and other presents that we've given her, we also let her choose where we ate dinner. She decided on ice cream first, then miso soup and sushi at the Japanese restaurant next door. She loves this place because not only does she love the food, but they have a small pond with dozens of koi fish in the middle of the room. She can walk right up to the pond and peer over the side to watch the fish swim up to her in the hope that they'll be fed. For a 3 year-old, this is the best. As an added bonus, she usually meets and plays with other kids who are there, too. So last night she's there looking at and talking to the fish when three older (probably 5 years old) boys came over to the pond and start to blow on the fish as they swim by. Clearly the fish did not like this. When they were blown on, they'd quickly swim off. The boys, being boys, were delighted that they were able to agitate these creatures. My daughter watched this for a minute or so, and I could almost see her thought process: "They are older, so should I do this too? The fish don't like this, though - and I like the fish. I don't know what to do." But then she made her decision for the welfare of the fish. So she marched over to these three kids who were significantly bigger than she was and started saying "don't blow on those fish!" over and over. They paid no attention, and after a few minutes, she came back to me exasperated. I suggested that she ask more politely. Of course, I knew that this would have no effect on them, but I wanted her to keep trying, to keep doing what she thought was the right thing. I didn't want to step in and teach her that justice only happens when you turn to an authority figure. I wanted her to feel as though she could do something for a cause that was important to her. To her credit, she started to ask politely. Then they started laughing and mocking her. This only spurred her on. She was getting angry, and started slapping her knees and shouting "stop, stop, stop, blowing on those fishies!!" again and again.

At this point I'm practically in tears I'm so happy. She is demonstrating empathy for the fish. She's standing up for what she believes in, even though the boys must have been very intimidating to her, and she did not resort to violence when she became frustrated. Eventually, one of the boys started clapping aggressively close to her, and I had to step in to protect her and scold him. The kid's father then materialized and ushered him away. The episode ended, but my wife and I praised her for the rest of the night.

But this was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I was and still am bursting with pride. To me, this is what parenthood and life is all about.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

That's awesome.

My daughter, who just turned four, I'm afraid is not quite as diplomatic. She would have asked me if she could 'whack those boys'.

The other day her one year-old brother was pestering her. She said, "One day I'm going to beat him on his ass".

I swear I don't know where she gets this stuff.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Sounds like your daughter is in the mafia!

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

[ QUOTE ]
But this was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. I was and still am bursting with pride. To me, this is what parenthood and life is all about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent story. I think you handled it really well, not coming to the "rescue" of your daughter when things weren't going her way. That's a mistake a lot of people make, I've seen it a thousand times having 4 kids of my own, and some times the mistake was made by myself or (more often) my wife.

I empathize with your mindset before and after having kids. Before my son was born, I was pretty irresponsible. Afterwards (but not immediately), you realize you are there for a bigger purpose than to find out why you are here, and watching kids learn and grow to be responsible people is really way more satisfying.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

nice story...thanks for sharing it...

sounds like youve got your act together and are doing the parent thing right...

you and your daughter are both very lucky...

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like your daughter is in the mafia!

[/ QUOTE ]

She gets it from her mom.



[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Congratulations on your daughter, your outlook on life, and feeling the pride you do when she "succeeds" at life.

My children are 11 and 7 and I understand exactly how you feel. My daughter turns 8 next week and there is a certain sadness I feel at every birthday. Sadness only because they need me a little less each year. Sure, when tragedy (for a child) strikes I am the first they go to- but I miss combing hair, running to the store for children's tylenol at 2:00 a.m., and carrying them when they are tired.

A week ago the children were fighting, being unreasonable, and yelling. I looked at my exasperated wife and said, "20 years from now we would do almost anything to have even this moment back". She agreed and we laughed.

Children helped me understand that the joy in life is the journey, not the destination. They have given me more than I could ever repay- they have made me a better person.

Again, congratulations!

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

I am shocked that a parent (assuming you are nearer 30) would be on BBV4Life and attempt to post this there.

I never had a desire to be a parent. Perhaps I was not built with a paternal instinct, or it was ripped out of my when I was younger.

I am interested in your existential thinking. When I was 19, I thought a lot like that, but ten years later, I think: meh. Maybe that is part of the drive that pushes people toward parenthood.

I once read a quote that went like this:

Life makes a lot more sense when you have kids, and it is fun to try to make them.

That is very telling, and your post nails that home. I never understood it for me: now I understand it for other people.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Great story, thanks for sharing.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

It definitely gives you a life story, at least for 20-ish years or so.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

[ QUOTE ]
A week ago the children were fighting, being unreasonable, and yelling. I looked at my exasperated wife and said, "20 years from now we would do almost anything to have even this moment back". She agreed and we laughed.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true. I read a blog post a while back where a woman was feeling overwhelmed while dealing with her cranky kids in the parking lot of a grocery store, when an older woman walked up and said that she would give anything to have another day like that with her own children.

Talk about heart-breaking.

My days of waking up and thinking "what's the f-ing point?" are over.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

[ QUOTE ]
That is very telling, and your post nails that home. I never understood it for me: now I understand it for other people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Your post and others have reassured me that at least my op has some valid emotional content.

Another thing that's quite clear for me is that parenthood is not for everyone. Not only is raising a kid difficult, but it's the biggest commitment a person could make (aside from the decision to die, I suppose). I have great respect for people who know themselves well enough to recognize that parenting isn't for them. There are soooo many people who have kids for all the wrong reasons. Man, It's painful to watch these families interact.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

What a great OP and great thread.

I guess I am the rare case in that being a parent hasn't made me stop questioning the meaning of life. Indeed, as my daughter is about to turn 11, and I am 37 and staring 40 in the face, I am questioning things as much as ever. But although I have read my share of existential philosophy, I have never had the level of angst which I think the OP is referring to here.

At any rate, my friend pointed me to this thread because I was bragging that my daughter called from school this morning with the news she was elected VP of her school. She did the whole campaign thing: signs, t-shirts, speeches, etc. All on her own motivation. Pretty amazing for a 10 year old to put herself out there like that. I know we are supposed to set the examples for our kids, and they are supposed to learn from us, but with my daughter it often seems the other way around.

So anyway, mostly I'm just saying I share the joy being described in this thread at being a parent. I have a difficult time describing it, and I like hearing about others who feel the same way.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Nice post OP.
Great Post DVH.
My oldest son 9 was having a fit yesterday because he was not allowed to watch a Hockey game. My wife was hurt by some of the things my son said, but I will use your line on her today. I think it will make her feel better.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

I'm older than most of you guys, 54, and I have three kids, 30, 25 and 17. The worst things I've done in my life have involved bad or at least careless parenting. My youngest has fallen off the rails; we had to have an escort come to the house to pick him up in the middle of the night, taking him to six weeks in the wilderness and now he's at a therapeutic boarding school.

That walk up the stairs when he got picked up in the middle of the night was the longest, hardest walk of my life. Whatever mistakes we made, we at least know now that we've given him a chance to get his life back together. He's been out of the house since March 7, I think about him basically 24/7. Some nights I sleep in his room to be "near" to him.

I'm a lousy one to take advice from, but it does go by quickly and the mistakes you make are sometimes awfully hard to fix. My wife and I are still in the process of trying to forgive ourselves for our mistakes. The good part is we've all become closer as a family and I realize that you can teach an old dog new tricks. I think we're all going to be better people on the other side of this, but there are no guarantees.

If you mess up being a parent, what difference does anything else make? It took me far too long to understand that. But better late than never.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm older than most of you guys, 54, and I have three kids, 30, 25 and 17. The worst things I've done in my life have involved bad or at least careless parenting. My youngest has fallen off the rails; we had to have an escort come to the house to pick him up in the middle of the night, taking him to six weeks in the wilderness and now he's at a therapeutic boarding school.

That walk up the stairs when he got picked up in the middle of the night was the longest, hardest walk of my life. Whatever mistakes we made, we at least know now that we've given him a chance to get his life back together. He's been out of the house since March 7, I think about him basically 24/7. Some nights I sleep in his room to be "near" to him.

I'm a lousy one to take advice from, but it does go by quickly and the mistakes you make are sometimes awfully hard to fix. My wife and I are still in the process of trying to forgive ourselves for our mistakes. The good part is we've all become closer as a family and I realize that you can teach an old dog new tricks. I think we're all going to be better people on the other side of this, but there are no guarantees.

If you mess up being a parent, what difference does anything else make? It took me far too long to understand that. But better late than never.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why don't kids come with an owners manual or something? I am really sorry to hear about your youngest. I can only imagine what that must be like for you. My first seems to have turned out OK but now I have the girl at 15 and boy at 11 and thinking about stuff that can go wrong scares the crap out of me.

I wish you all luck on the journey back.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm older than most of you guys, 54, and I have three kids, 30, 25 and 17. The worst things I've done in my life have involved bad or at least careless parenting. My youngest has fallen off the rails; we had to have an escort come to the house to pick him up in the middle of the night, taking him to six weeks in the wilderness and now he's at a therapeutic boarding school.
...
That walk up the stairs when he got picked up in the middle of the night was the longest, hardest walk of my life. Whatever mistakes we made, we at least know now that we've given him a chance to get his life back together.



[/ QUOTE ]


I can't stop thinking about this post. It is sort of haunting me. Couple questions.

What kind of place picks up kids in the middle of the night? Does it cost a fortune? Does your kid write to you or call home? You mentioned that you are fixing your mistakes. When you say "mistakes" are you talking about being too harsh or too lenient with the parenting? I've seen some very harsh parents that have messed up their boys.

I think there are many kids who have a very rough adolescence through no fault of their parents. Some kids just have an obstinate immature personality right? Anyway, thanks for sharing this story with the forum. For what it's worth I think getting kids into wilderness training sounds like a really interesting option. There must be thousands of kids out there who don't do well in conventional school settings but would shine on a ranch or farm or other outdoor arena. Good job at widening his horizon and showing him there's another way.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Yeah, good luck andy. Some of my brothers were into hard drugs and it took them to some bad places. It was really hard for our family to deal with at some points. Especially my dad, who is a reactionary anyway, and that never makes anything easier. And we had lots of messed up kids as a foster family. Hopefully things work out as time goes by, even if for now they don't feel good or right for anybody. I can't say all my brothers or sister became every parent's fantasy in time, nor did my parents wind up storybook examples to the world, but the wounds did eventually manage to heal all around. Even my own, which I thought for decades was impossible. Good luck to you all, and don't give up ever. I think that's the most important thing and one of the harder things.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

"What kind of place picks up kids in the middle of the night?"

We hired an educational consultant and were advised to have an escort pick him up in the middle of the night. There was a real chance had he known what our plans were, he would have bolted.

"Does it cost a fortune?"

I assume you're talking about the escort to the wilderness. There were two guys and we paid their airfare (our son was taken to Second Nature in Duchesne, Utah, we live in L.A.), plus our son's airfare, plus the fee. IIRC, the tab for the night was about $2,500.

The wilderness was for six weeks and it was roughly $18,000. The therapeutic boarding school is $6,200 a month. We're fortunate to be able to afford this, we think about those who cannot and are forced to take their chances with their kid in either a less expensive out-patient program or do nothing. My wife and I agreed that whatever the cost, we would do what needed to be done--including selling everything we have.

"Does your kid write to you or call home?"

He writes weekly and we speak to him weekly. But just for twenty minutes. Each school has their own method and way of dealing with the kids.

The hardest days were the first few when he went away. You get a call to let you know he arrived OK and how he's doing, but you don't speak to him for awhile.

When the wilderness experience is over, and you've arranged for whatever arrangements for after that (some people, mistakenly, in my judgment, take their kids home), the parents go and spend two nights in the wilderness with their child. It was the greatest experience of our lives. We were led in blindfolded, just holding onto our son, he gives you presents he made for you, and you live in the wilderness with nothing but the skills he has acquired while there.

"You mentioned that you are fixing your mistakes. When you say 'mistakes' are you talking about being too harsh or too lenient with the parenting?"

I don't know. In certain respects probably too harsh, and in others too lenient. The experience is probably too close to us now to really judge objectively. The bottom line is that none of us--my son, my wife, myself--can take back what was or was not done and all we can do is try to not make the same mistakes again. I will say all of us are communicating now as we never did, that my wife and I are cognizant of many things we didn't do that we should have, and that we're trying to be attuned to him and he to us. We go back to the school next in December. There's a workshop for parents only, then family sessions involving three families, the therapists, and upper class student helpers. We then have a regional visit where we will take him off campus for two nights. He will then come home to spend some time with us in March and he graduates in August. So he will have been at the boarding school for 15 months.

Here's the school:
http://www.carlbrook.org/

But the website doesn't do their program justice. These people are so dedicated, so caring.

Here is the wilderness program he went to:
http://www.snwp.com/

"Some kids just have an obstinate immature personality right?"

I don't know if anything we could have done would have ended up with a different story for our son. All I know is we're trying to do all we can to make sure there's a happy ending, or at least to give him the tools and the opportunity to make a happy ending for himself.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Thanks.

It's a sad thing to admit, but the one thing all the kids who ended up at the school my son is at have in common is that they're inveterate quitters. Took the easy way out. As a father, I probably did too. But no more. And hopefully not him any more either.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Awesome. It's really hard not to quit. Good luck to all of you.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

I think the middle of the night is a weird psychological time also. Makes people more 'moldable' or something. I'm pretty sure the Marines used to drop off new recruits at Parris Island in the middle of the night.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Thanks for answering all my questions. I appreciate your candidness and find the topic very interesting. It's great to see parents who care so much about their child that they are willing to research the best program for him and participate in family therapy to help save the kid. I admire that a lot.



[ QUOTE ]


We then have a regional visit where we will take him off campus for two nights. He will then come home to spend some time with us in March and he graduates in August. So he will have been at the boarding school for 15 months.

Here's the school:
http://www.carlbrook.org/

But the website doesn't do their program justice. These people are so dedicated, so caring.



[/ QUOTE ]



Wow, this place looks amazing. Are you saying that he hasn't been home in 15 months? That's a long time. No wonder you miss him. I looked at the pictures of his school and I am impressed. Gorgeous facilities. (That's how I wished my home looked [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) No wonder it costs $6200/month!

How hard is it to get into this school and what sort of success rate do they have as far as placing kids in college and assimilating back into their families?


Very cozy looking
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/295/sl872506sc1.jpg

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1...b872612jd3.jpg




(Also, do the kids wear ties to class? They look very formal but I like it! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

We got into his room and I woke him up. I told him there were a couple of people here who were going to take him out of the house, that he was going to a place where he would get clean and be healthy and we loved him and this was for the best. He said, "OK." And he got up and got dressed and they left. We did't know what his reaction was going to be. Some kids physically resist, which is why they send two people as the escorts, one of whom could likely have taken on, and beaten, Ali. For my son, it seemed a relief, that he wouldn't have to live another day like he was living, with his grades in the toilet, the lies and the tension in the house.

Re: parenthood and the meaning of life (long & x-posted with BBV4L)
 

Hey Andy-

Wow. I can't imagine what you've been through. I just wanted to jump back into the conversation here and let you know that my throat tightened up when I read your piece about walking up the stairs in the middle of the night. Good luck, man - I hope it all works out for your family.

Marlow