10/20 hu hand
 

the villain isn't important because i don't have much of a read on him at this point in the match.

stacks are 1900 effective.

i raise T8o to 60, he calls. flop 789r he c/c 100. turn 7. chk chk. river 6. he pots 320. i shove.

how's the shove?

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

no me gusta

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

A shove isn't that big of a raise so its a good option given the way the hand played out because he can still call with something weak, but I have never tried this myself so I'm not sure how well this works.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

meh

hes not check calling a big hand on such a drawy flop unless its T6 or JT i think so i dont think you can reasonably put him on a boat (except for maybe 76/66), but JT is def possible

as for calling worse...early in a match hard to get him to hero call, but also important that you vbet hard early in match to setup future situations

i assume you had same thought process, and this is actually pretty tough/uncertain, im not sure, but im leaning towards flat call because i doubt he even calls like A7 or 55

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

i like it Duck

SF

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

i'm not trying to get him to call worse unless he's a total retard. but how often can he really have better?

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not trying to get him to call worse unless he's a total retard. but how often can he really have better?

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's got TJ.. we pay him,if not a chop at worst
[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not trying to get him to call worse unless he's a total retard. but how often can he really have better?

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then why don't you just call? i don't get it. you realy feel like sticking in a whole stack when no worse hands call and all better hands do just to maybe get him off a chop? really don't like the risk-reward here.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

i dunno i just feel like this is a bluff 17% of the time, a ten 85% of the time, and better 8% of the time. are these numbers just way off? that was my read based on an unknown taking this line

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

this has to be a bluff right?

or you're playing a retard?

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno i just feel like this is a bluff 17% of the time, a ten 85% of the time, and better 8% of the time. are these numbers just way off? that was my read based on an unknown taking this line

[/ QUOTE ]
u mean a ten 75% of the time?

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

'im not trying to get him to call worse'

end thread?

Why the hell would u move in then. If you wanna get some value out of weaker hands i would go for 800, but i would flat this a ton.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

shes trying to fold out a ten u retards

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

Villain has 76 a good amount.. I don't like shoving but I don't think its awful.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

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shes trying to fold out a ten u retards

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lol @ accomplishing this. as played call, nothing worse pays you off.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

I don't think a T should fold really, your line doesn't look much like a better hand to me. I don't like it.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

you wont get him to fold a ten, so the question is does he call with something u beat or does he have a better hand more often? it would be very retarded to pot 55 or a random 7 on the river for value on this board so no i dont think thats profitable: just call.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not trying to get him to call worse unless he's a total retard.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, then i dislike it even more than how much i originally disliked it.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

yea i dont think anybody is folding a ten or calling with a worse hand often at all, so... call seems much better to me too.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

vanessa,

i think he has JT/boatski more often than u think. i kinda like it anyway tho. its clearly -EV in a vacuum but not by that much and i think that if u decide to give this guy hell and make him hate life, u gotta do this [censored] a lot...

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

I only like it if you think he can maybe fold a T, otherwise it seems pretty bad for obvious reasons.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

as retarded as it seems, i see way too many people c/c this flop with 78/79/JT type hands, as well as 76 obv.

Once he pots the river, he folds a T just about never.

This is one of those spots i used to push a lot also, but more often than not people's stupidity pwns me when they show 78 type stuffs.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

So your argument is essentially game theory and getting him off a chop?

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

MY thinking was that his line looks like a T at worst but i can't see him having much better than a T very often so it's almost always a T. given that, i'm not paying him off with worse really ever... so it seems like a good spot to go for a river c/r with anything that can beat a T. that seems very obvious to me. so given that any decent player should usually c/r a boat here, i felt we were almost always chopping, and that shoving would get him off a T a LOT of the time (why the hell wouldn't it, if i posted this from the T perspectigve, you'd all say fold) plus it makes his life hell to play against me (which is always nice for him to play scurred poker and for me to own his soul)

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
MY thinking was that his line looks like a T at worst but i can't see him having much better than a T very often so it's almost always a T. given that, i'm not paying him off with worse really ever... so it seems like a good spot to go for a river c/r with anything that can beat a T. that seems very obvious to me. so given that any decent player should usually c/r a boat here, i felt we were almost always chopping, and that shoving would get him off a T a LOT of the time (why the hell wouldn't it, if i posted this from the T perspectigve, you'd all say fold) plus it makes his life hell to play against me (which is always nice for him to play scurred poker and for me to own his soul)

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so you have no real read on your opponent but you're putting in a ton of money to win not much assuming with strong certainty that
a) he never slowplays a set or two pair on a straight flop
b) he is good enough to c/r the river here with a boat
c) he folds a ten here

Listen, this is crazy. I'm sorry, but you're assigning way too much significance to how you think people ought to play and assuming they play that way.

Some people don't like playing huge pots with bottom two ont this flop. Some people don't c/r this river (maybe they think you won't bet a 9 here but you'll call with it, maybe they're idiots who just don't c/r river hardly ever). Some people don't even bet a ten here just planning to give you rope and deciding to c/c here. If this were HU against some known thinking player your play would still be borderline bad but against an unknown you're giving way too much significance to the fact that if h has a big hand, villain didn't play his hand in a way you think he ought to.

All it takes is your opponent doing one thing that you don't consider standard and all of a sudden you're spewing off a buy-in.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

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I don't think a T should fold really, your line doesn't look much like a better hand to me. I don't like it.

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Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

Without a read I do not like this. He his not folding a T as often as he is calling with a boat/JT. Call and move in next time in a similar spot

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

fox,



mmm... ducks play is standard HU play. i think most HU players would agree on that...

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
fox,



mmm... ducks play is standard HU play. i think most HU players would agree on that...

[/ QUOTE ]

except for that both EC10 and I play primarily HU and disagree, as does Pasterbator who plays a lot of HU (I think) and the only HU player who likes this is sponger but he admits he's never tried it before so doubt it's his standard. plus lots of other good players don't like the play.

sorry for the bump but i'm drunk and this condescending comment with no explanation other than appeal to some imaginary authority tilted me.

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

wtf even i don't think this is standard. this is so far from standard it's unbelievable. i just thought it was something cool to try with a little bit of imagination. i got the point, people don't like it, ok let's move on...

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fox,



mmm... ducks play is standard HU play. i think most HU players would agree on that...

[/ QUOTE ]

except for that both EC10 and I play primarily HU and disagree, as does Pasterbator who plays a lot of HU (I think) and the only HU player who likes this is sponger but he admits he's never tried it before so doubt it's his standard. plus lots of other good players don't like the play.

sorry for the bump but i'm drunk and this condescending comment with no explanation other than appeal to some imaginary authority tilted me.

[/ QUOTE ]


Sry for sounding condescending. You never gets a worse hand to call you with a smaller raise so all that remains is to push a split off. Even if you dont succed with that a push has other benefits. Such as getting paid off when you do have FH and those times he folds you keep the river aggression factor up.

I really do believe that this is standard HU play and still think that most HU players would agree on his. At least for 25-50 and up.

But it probably wasnt as standard as i first thought so i take back half of that standardness;)

Re: 10/20 hu hand
 

my thoughts:

a) It's bad in a vacuum...

but

b) ... we are not in a vacuum, we're playing a HU match which can go on for a while. I do agree with duck that I would not be too worried about being beat on the river so the immideate benefit is getting another T to fold, which it definitely will some % of the time, though probably not that much. But I really like the metagame aspect of this play because knowing that this is the sort of [censored] he'll have to deal with, opponent will become a lot more hesitant to try for thin v-bets and should become more passive in general, which can easily make a major difference as the match progresses. It seems that this aspect is being by and large overlooked, and it's an important one.

Kirk