misread my hand, winner mucks
 

100+ rebuy tourny.

I thought this sucked, but but didn't know what to do.

I hold A3, raise from button and am called by SB. Heads up.

flop is 244. He checks, I bet.
turn is a J. he checks, I bet.
River is a 6. I bet. He calls.

I turn over my hand and say, "I have a straight."
He throws his cards in the muck where they are quickly shuffled in.
Table goes crazy. I'm stunned. I realize I misread my hand.
Of course a few don't believe me.

Though I think it's mostly his fault, I pull a $20 from my pocket and drop it on the floor. I then say to SB, "Hey, you dropped some money." He picks it up and says thanks.

Was I wrong?

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

Yes, you were wrong.

If the dealer pushed you the pot, then he's wrong.

If the floor ruled that you should get the pot, then he's wrong.

If SB stood by and did nothing while the pot was shipped to you, then he's wrong.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you were wrong.

If the dealer pushed you the pot, then he's wrong.

If the floor ruled that you should get the pot, then he's wrong.

If SB stood by and did nothing while the pot was shipped to you, then he's wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]


If opponent mucked his cards (did not table them) then its his fault. So it is correct for the dealer/floor to award the pot to OP.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you were wrong.

If the dealer pushed you the pot, then he's wrong.

If the floor ruled that you should get the pot, then he's wrong.

If SB stood by and did nothing while the pot was shipped to you, then he's wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

You would advocate it be standard operating procedure for a dealer to always push the pot to the "non misdeclared hand" player in this situation?

No floor necessary? Just have the dealer unilaterally decide to ship the pot to the only player with a dead hand on the river?

I think any rulling should go in favour of said player, but it has to be instituted by the floor. AND the decision to call the floor should be made by the offended party, not the dealer.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

There is a lot of blame to go around here, but hands get mis-called all the time. The SB should have waited to SEE your hand before mucking his cards. Going by your verbal call should not be sufficient.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

KITN all around - 1 for you miscalling your hand (I know you didn't do it intentionally but it still happened), 2 for other guy instamucking on a verbal declaration of what hands are out there and not looking for himself, and a kick in the cooter for the dealer because she didn't verify your hand before mixing the other guys cards with the muck.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]

If the floor ruled that you should get the pot, then he's wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell?

OP's opponent mucked his hand, and the dealer mucked the cards. OP was wrong for miscalling his hand, the dealer was wrong for not reading the board, and the opponent was wrong for folding before the dealer announced OP's hand.

How could the floor have been wrong for awarding the pot to OP, when his hand is the only one that is still live? If the opponent's cards were not identifiable and retrievable - which in this case, they were not - then the opponent's hand was dead.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

I believe Robert's Rules say if you intentionally miscall your hand and your opponent mucks, your hand may be forfeit. (The lowball rules specifically state that your hand is dead, while the holdem rules only say may be dead.) Of course it's pretty difficult to prove intent.

Considering that it was a tourney, I think OP "dropping" $20 was a solid gesture. Good on ya, trying to make the best of a crappy situation.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

Everybody is at fault in this situation. This is why we have dealers; they manage the game. This dealer failed to do so. Unfortunately, SB had mucked his hand and OP has the only live cards. It's his pot. I'm not sure what the house would do in this instance.

I suppose a good lesson here is that you shouldn't call your hands; it's best to table them and let the dealer do it.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

I would award this pot to the small blind. (assuming this hand took place in some place like LA, Vegas, or Miss).

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would award this pot to the small blind. (assuming this hand took place in some place like LA, Vegas, or Miss).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have any concern that in a tournament this sort of thing effects the other players (who don't know that the other player would have won since he folded face down) tournament play allows you to use other penalties -- might it be more appropriate to give the the offender time away from the table?

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would award this pot to the small blind. (assuming this hand took place in some place like LA, Vegas, or Miss).

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this based solely on the fact that OP miscalled his hand? Would you do this if SB had tabled a hand worse than A-high, but OP still miscalled a straight?

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
who don't know that the other player would have won since he folded face down)

[/ QUOTE ]

Since he was the caller I would speculate that he would have won since he was the caller. If he had been the bettor and threw his cards in the muck I would not have awarded the pot to him because there is a decent probability that he was on a busted draw that the naked ace could beat.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would award this pot to the small blind. (assuming this hand took place in some place like LA, Vegas, or Miss).

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this based solely on the fact that OP miscalled his hand? Would you do this if SB had tabled a hand worse than A-high, but OP still miscalled a straight?

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an obligation to note overstate the value of your hand. If a player reacts to you overcalling your hand by mucking theirs they are entitled to some protection. If it can be found that a player intentionally overcalled their hand their hand is dead without question if their opponent mucked. In this case I don't think he intentionally overcalled his hand. In cases where it was not intentional I can't remember a player ever asking for the pot after the other player mucked. Most players are honest and agree their opponent should get the pot if they announced a hand they didn't have. The angle shooters on the other hand get quite upset when they successfully got the other player to muck their cards and then learn that overcalling your hand is not a valid tactic.

Simple solutions
 

silently turn your cards up and make them visible to the dealer. If people are miscalling their own hands, they should not declare them in the first place. This is one of the reasons why we tip dealers and pay for dealer juice.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

Why in the world is it that every time there is a problem with the dealer making a mistake it has to be a she? I deal. Im male and I have FUBARed way to many hands to remember (i learn from my mistakes but still). So yeh. why is it its always a female that is dealing when someone Fs up.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

A few points after having slept.

I think the dealer read my hand as a straight and only after SB's bullet muck did he realize his mistake. I say so 'cause he immediately pushed me the pot and said that's your's. I didn't immediately pull in the chips and the dealer kinda raised his tone and repeated himself and I raked in the chips. SB, who I'd been having a conversation with throughout the tourny, said he had 55, but no one ever saw his hand. I went to the floorman, who I've known for close to 10 years, and explained the situation. He said he's never known me to do anything like that and there was nothing to demonstrate intent so he was content to let it go. Had I been flashed the 55 prior to the bullet muck. I woulda of course given him the pot. The end result was that I went on tilt, played like crap and was in the sights of a few players who eventually busted me.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

I would never pay him, ever. As a poker player you should not care whether or not another player loses, granted you kind of took an angle shot on that (incidentally). But it's poker 101 to not throw your hand into the muck til you see cards.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you were wrong.

If the dealer pushed you the pot, then he's wrong.

If the floor ruled that you should get the pot, then he's wrong.

If SB stood by and did nothing while the pot was shipped to you, then he's wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

You would advocate it be standard operating procedure for a dealer to always push the pot to the "non misdeclared hand" player in this situation?

No floor necessary? Just have the dealer unilaterally decide to ship the pot to the only player with a dead hand on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't put words into my mouth. When I said the dealer was wrong to push the pot to the OP, that does mean I think the dealer should "unilaterally decide to ship the pot to the only player with a dead hand on the river".

There's a third option, of which I think the dealer should avail himself: call the floor before pushing the pot anywhere.

[ QUOTE ]
I think any rulling should go in favour of said player, but it has to be instituted by the floor. AND the decision to call the floor should be made by the offended party, not the dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a tournament. When something like this happens, every player in the tournament, even at other tables, is among the "offended party".

There are lots of times that a dealer should let the "offended party" make the call. A string bet in a heads-up pot is a fine example, because why call the infraction if the offended party WANTS to be raised? Who is being protected?

In this case, it's safe to assume that the offended party does not want the pot pushed to his opponent with the inferior hand.

And in a tournament, there is no such thing as heads-up pot, until there are only two players remaining in the tournament.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why in the world is it that every time there is a problem with the dealer making a mistake it has to be a she?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've gone to using "she" in my posts to describe dealers. I don't reserve it for posts where the dealer makes a mistake.

It's just a way to avoid confusion among pronouns. Every post usually has a Hero, a Villain, and a Dealer. Calling them all "he" can lead to confusion. Designating one as "she" helps relieve that.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

Nice recovery.

You did fine. Better than most, actually.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why in the world is it that every time there is a problem with the dealer making a mistake it has to be a she? I deal. Im male and I have FUBARed way to many hands to remember (i learn from my mistakes but still). So yeh. why is it its always a female that is dealing when someone Fs up.

[/ QUOTE ]

because dealing is a chick job,,,,lol

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

Thats the other thing that I noticed from the post. You showed your hand and even though it was misread you are still the only one to show. He mucked. If he opened his cards and then the dealer inturn mucked them. Then the cards speak since the cameras can see what the cards were and can be corrected.

True, it was a bad call on your part that you mis-stated your hand but he sure as shooting should have asked to see your hand before he tossed his in face down.

To me, you won the hand. Everyone is responsible for their own cards and the SB didnt do that.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
I turn over my hand and say, "I have a straight."
He throws his cards in the muck where they are quickly shuffled in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cards speak, so since you tabled your hand you could have said "I have a Royal" or "I have a Triple Flush" and it wouldn't matter - you have 44AJ6. If you misdeclare your hand *without* tabling it, then KITN and dead hand result.

As played, you have the best properly tabled hand and thus you win the pot. KITN to SB for not tabling his hand, KITN to the dealer for not correcting you, SITH (slap in the head) to you for misreading your hand.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I turn over my hand and say, "I have a straight."
He throws his cards in the muck where they are quickly shuffled in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cards speak, so since you tabled your hand you could have said "I have a Royal" or "I have a Triple Flush" and it wouldn't matter - you have 44AJ6. If you misdeclare your hand *without* tabling it, then KITN and dead hand result.

As played, you have the best properly tabled hand and thus you win the pot. KITN to SB for not tabling his hand, KITN to the dealer for not correcting you, SITH (slap in the head) to you for misreading your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know that is how he typed it, but I am guessing he stated what he "had" prior to showing the hand.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

Its called "Bluffing for a muck", and there is no rule against it. How many times have you gotten HU in a pot, and your opponent says he has some other hand....joking or not. If you muck your hand, it is you fault. I do it at our home games all the time bc its all friends, but I dont think I would do it at a casino, with people that I dont know.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

I once had a floorman that used to exclaim he had a "royal house"... dont think anyone ever folded to it.

Re: misread my hand, winner mucks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its called "Bluffing for a muck", and there is no rule against it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me refer you to Robert's Rules of Poker, under Section 3 > The Showdown:

[ QUOTE ]
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]