Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

BTN is a standard shortstack donkey, he's pushed PF several times already, but hasn't gotten any action.

SB is out to get me. He sucked out on me in a 400BB+ pot and proceeded to talk a bunch of [censored], and then leave the table, like a douchebag. Several minutes later, he joined this table with $100 and has so far called every single one of my PFRs. I've been shutting down on my cbetting vs him, since he loves to play back at me.

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (CO): $512.20
BTN: $36.20
SB: $231.35
BB: $254.10
UTG: $228.75

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $7</font>, BTN calls $7, SB calls $6, BB folds

Flop: ($23) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero?

BTN has $29 behind, SB has a little over 100BBs.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

so u wanted to check?

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

[ QUOTE ]
so u wanted to check?

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That's one option, but I guess I wanted to hear what people had to say about:

a) Checking
b) Betting $14
c) Betting more than $14

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

Any tricky reason not to make a standard bet here? $18 looks good.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

Yeah, I was thinking 14 so BTN can come over the top and we can shove if SB calls.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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Any tricky reason not to make a standard bet here? $18 looks good.

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I can think of a few, but I'll let the thread pan out a bit.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

Seems like a pretty easy bet $20 and get it allin with your read. Maybe if BTN had like $32 I'd bet $16 so I could reopen the betting but I'm not willing to only bet $14 here.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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Maybe if BTN had like $32 I'd bet $16 so I could reopen the betting but I'm not willing to only bet $14 here.

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Why not?

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

betting $29 could get a spite call/raise from sb

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

I prefer betting 18&gt;14 here as there are allsorts of funky draws SB could have and its worth making him pay that lil bit more for him to make it. With the history between you to I say he'll call 18 if he's gonna call 14 at all.
Button can do what he wants.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

I usually bet $29 here, but that probably costs us some action from the other dude

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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I usually bet $29 here

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wtf

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

uh this hand is confusing.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

The are def. merits to betting $14.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

I would never check, and can be persuaded either way to bet 14 or more than 14.

I would bet larger though usually.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

Oh, I get it. You want to bet small so that SB will try to isolate raise the shorty and then you come over the top?

I'm not sure we would have enough info to go with it like that. I think I'd prefer betting an amount that does not induce action because I like more information first. If you bet 17, shorty shoves, and SB coldcalls and you call, then we can bomb the turn nicely on a blank and he checks.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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I usually bet $29 here

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wtf

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shorty has $29 left it's not just a random number

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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Maybe if BTN had like $32 I'd bet $16 so I could reopen the betting but I'm not willing to only bet $14 here.

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Why not?

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I just don't think that the value gained by reopening the betting when the trifecta of:
1. short stack pushes
2. guy who messes with you often calls 2 bets cold
3. you're still getting value from worse hands after the previous two things happen
is worth giving better odds to draws, and not getting money more money in the pot now. Betting bigger makes any bluff that SB makes more expensive, and gives you the best chance of stacking a J by the river imo.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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better odds to draws

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I guess I just don't see the difference between giving them 2.6:1 vs 2.4:1

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

Its not only making him have thinner odds but also creating a bigger pot for the next couple rounds so you can get more off him

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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Its not only making him have thinner odds but also creating a bigger pot for the next couple rounds so you can get more off him

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Yeah, it creates a bigger pot, but it's not like it's a huge strain to get stacks in if I bet $14. I can even do it without overbetting.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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better odds to draws

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I guess I just don't see the difference between giving them 2.6:1 vs 2.4:1

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Pretty much my problem is the gain of being able to reopen the betting in this situation really doesn't feel that huge. Mainly because, even if he likes messing with you, I doubt he's going to call the flop after a short stack pushes you AND THEN stack off light when you reraise the flop. And if he was then you'd probably get it in on the turn or river anyways if you just bet $20 on the flop.
In situations like this, I feel a bet that allows me to reopen needs to be closer to my standard bet. I don't feel $14 is close enough, but I feel about $16 is. Anyways this type of situation comes up so rarely it's really not that important to discuss.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

I would just bet 16-18 and pray SB has a jack or flush draw.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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I've been shutting down on my cbetting vs him, since he loves to play back at me.

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Is he smart enough to notice this?

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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In situations like this, I feel a bet that allows me to reopen needs to be closer to my standard bet.

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I tend to mix up my flop bet sizing a lot, and I recommend you do the same.

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Anyways this situation comes up so rarely it's really not that important to discuss.

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Strongly Disagree. Both about the rarity and the importance.

To those that want to bet &gt; $14, how do you feel about extracting value in a dry side pot?

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

Jim,
What hands do you think he's coldcalling 2 bets on the flop (assuming you bet $14), then paying off a 3bet?

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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Jim,
What hands do you think he's coldcalling 2 bets on the flop (assuming you bet $14), then paying off a 3bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Seeing as how he has a vendetta against Jim, I can see him calling the shorty's shove with any TP or any decent draw and then lick his lips when Jim 3-bets.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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better odds to draws

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I guess I just don't see the difference between giving them 2.6:1 vs 2.4:1

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This is not correct. Counting the correct pot odds would result in villain for example needing an extra $24 in implied odds with a 5-outer to call profitably.

Now if a smaller bet is more likely to induce a bluff from a lagtard then obv the smaller bet might be better, but saying there's no difference between betting 18 and 14 is silly

Edit: Ok, so this was an answer to Pat, I agree there's not much difference between 16 and 14...

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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saying there's no difference between betting 16 and 14 is silly

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Pretty sure the difference is minuscule, particularly since shorty is getting his money in a large percentage of the time.

If he wants to try and play his gutshot OOP, power to him.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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Jim,
What hands do you think he's coldcalling 2 bets on the flop (assuming you bet $14), then paying off a 3bet?

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Seeing as how he has a vendetta against Jim, I can see him calling the shorty's shove with any TP or any decent draw and then lick his lips when Jim 3-bets.

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This is kinda where my head was. Shorty can be moving with any draw, any pair, hell, almost ATC that have some semblance of a chance to win, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him in there with some weak made hands, and when he does have a J, particularly KJ+, I don't really see him getting away.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

This is a pretty interesting spot. I bet 14.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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I've been shutting down on my cbetting vs him, since he loves to play back at me.

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Is he smart enough to notice this?

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Can't say for sure, but he doesn't seem terrible, so he should have noticed a little bit.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

In the dry side pot Im betting for value against him as I put ya ahead of him for sure.
Assuming shorty goes allin and you both call I think 70$ on turn and depending on river card check or shove.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

bigjim, i agree with what you are saying about all of this and i am really impressed with your situational bet sizing. i am trying to incorporate a lot of this in to my game and i 100% owe you for it. I think i actually told someone to bet smaller to set up a pot sized shove on the river with more fold equity in a post today, and i can thank you for that thought process.

tytyty.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

i'm thinking overbet to appear to target shorty might be the most effective way to induce SB to make a gigantic mistake.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

i would bet 28 for meta game, so the shorty can shove over you.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

Bet exactly half of what the shortstack has for obvious reasons. This situation is very similar to the 5/10 $100 max game that is played in Florida . You raise to exactly $55 so that when the $100 stacks shove in blind you can reraise. That clearly looks like the best option in your hand.

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

$14 is pretty standard. Shortie pushes and hopefully SB takes the bait. If not, you still win a decent sized pot. For those advocating more than $14, you realize that a shortie push doesn't reopen the betting right?

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

i like 14, i think the 29 will get him to fold seeing as he figures the shortie will call and he'll see ur hand...

Re: Boring KK Hand: $1/$2
 

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This is a pretty interesting spot. I bet 14 when I'm playing vv well but generally I end up just bombing out like 16-18 and regretting it when shortie pushes, sb cold calls and I can't isolate.

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