80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

4 handed BEOT. Villain here seems to be fairly weak at Stud 8 and will defend his BI lightly, if he has two flush and two wheel cards he's going nowhere. Ace+low+broadway I'm sure is sufficient also. He will also peel 4th-5th very light when he bricks and he'll pay off with pretty much anything with some shot of winning a piece of the pot.

$20 ante/$20 BI. Villain is BI with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. The 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] fold, I complete (2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], villain calls

4th:
Villain: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Me: (2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img])4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I check, he bets

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

You're a dog to pretty much anything. It doesn't sound like you're going to get this guy to fold much of anything at any point. How likely is it that the other guy is going to give you free cards when you want them? There's $240 in the pot before this round. Do you want to pay $560 to see if maybe you can get half of it? Tens are just brutally awful cards in this game. I think I let this one go.

Is this a regular game somewhere?

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

Yeah thats such a bad card for you.

You could possibly call and c/f 5th but really thats a ghey line.

I spose you should just bin it right row.

JT

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

Apparently this is a fairly regular game at the Bike a few days a week, this week is the first time I've played it.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

What's a full game? Six players? That's a good number for triple draw, OK for stud/8, and less OK for O/8, at least my O/8 game, which is geared towards having seven people see the flop and three of them pay me off when I hit the nuts.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

I assume 8 handed but we were never more than 5 handed and 3-4 most the night anyway.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

Wouldn't you be shuffling the discards like every hand in triple draw?

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

The UTG/UTG+1 do not get hands during triple draw in 8 handed games so it becomes 6 max for triple draw.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

This is an easy fold IMO.

I know he will defend his BI with anything, but I would still just throw it away. Its all about the playability of your hand. And right now, it sucks!

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

Fold and wait for a better opportunity.

(This is at the Bike? They're moving up. I played in a 20-40 version of this game about a year ago, and it was pretty sweet, worth playing in when I knew essentially nothing about Badugi.)

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

fold.

you can't always outplay the worst player on the table.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

You still have to let this go. That's just how stud 8 works; you should be playing pretty weakly until you get in a dominating position, then you jam hard.

FWIW, I don't know if this mixed game would suit your playing style very well.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

really? not taking one off here with 245 seems pretty weak especially considering his 2 undercards could be almost anything.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You still have to let this go. That's just how stud 8 works; you should be playing pretty weakly until you get in a dominating position, then you jam hard.

FWIW, I don't know if this mixed game would suit your playing style very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what my playing style is exactly but I play all games but holdem pretty straightforward other than BT which I am feeling in live games that it is better to snow if I don't get there after the second draw because nobody thinks anybody is snowing.

Mike L told me I'm a mixed game fish too, or at least a Stud 8 fish. Completely based on this hand.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

if he called you a fish based on you peeling 4th, i must say im confused. i almost always peel one with 245. villain didn't even catch that great a card. the only hands we're actually somewhat in trouble against are medium or bigger pairs and trips, which are a pretty small portion of his range.

there are a lot of cards we can get on 4th street that give us a chance to win the whole pot too. any A, 3, 6 gives us the best low draw and straight outs, a T gives us the best hi most likely w/ bd low draw, and a 2 4 or 5 wouldn't be terrible unless villain hits good.

also based on description, we can def count on getting paid if we hit and that he will continue to draw to a worse low if we catch good.

edit: also it isn't great if he has Ace low underneath, but again given OP's description, these hands make up a small portion of villain's calling range.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

Yes my argument was basically "villain is terrible, a/3/6 completely live" and "would you fold if the game was HU?"

However basically everyone has said I should fold here quickly but should call quickly if my hand featured an Ace. I guess I might be wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

HU dynamic makes the game and situation much different. (edit: if the game is HU, not the hand)

I would still fold even if I had an Ace down. Think about possible 5th and 6th street scenarios. They are either bad, or not great. You only invested one small bet, let it go bro!

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
HU dynamic makes the game and situation much different. (edit: if the game is HU, not the hand)

I would still fold even if I had an Ace down. Think about possible 5th and 6th street scenarios. They are either bad, or not great. You only invested one small bet, let it go bro!

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folding A baby baby here would be brutal

oh and im not sure what ur talking about when u say 5th and 6th is eaither not great or bad. what about when we have the low locked up and are freerolling? what about when we have pair of aces (most likely best hi hand) and best low draw? what about when we hit a wheel!?!

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You still have to let this go. That's just how stud 8 works; you should be playing pretty weakly until you get in a dominating position, then you jam hard.

FWIW, I don't know if this mixed game would suit your playing style very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what my playing style is exactly but I play all games but holdem pretty straightforward other than BT which I am feeling in live games that it is better to snow if I don't get there after the second draw because nobody thinks anybody is snowing.

Mike L told me I'm a mixed game fish too, or at least a Stud 8 fish. Completely based on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point about this particular mix of games is that they don't suit your natural playing style. Stud 8 and Omaha 8 don't favor many of the very aggressive plays you tend to make (which work very well in hold em and even stud hi). Why would you waste your time in a mix game where 2/4 games take you out of your comfort zone and the other two are really straightforward gamble fests?

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

[ QUOTE ]


folding A baby baby here would be brutal


[/ QUOTE ]

i'm with you on this. i don't think i can let the worst player on the table get away that easily when his down cards can be any two. this is also with the assumption that the implied odds are there if HOWMANY catches an ace.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

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if he called you a fish based on you peeling 4th, i must say im confused. i almost always peel one with 245.

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You're welcome in my game, any time. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Do you remember Doyle Brunson's story about being in a game with a drunk? It's in both SS and According to Doyle. Brunson got head up in a stud game with a drunk and raised and reraised all-in on an early street when he had a slight edge: Brunson had a pair and the drunk had a draw. After the money went in, the drunk hit his draw and Brunson was out of action for the night. The moral is, make your stands when you have a big edge, not a small one.

If our hero is ahead here, it's not by much. Hero caught a bad card; fold and wait for a better opportunity.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

Well first of all the story was Chip Reese went broke when he had a small edge and all his money on the table and second of all the moral of the story is terrible because it's a cash game and if I lose pushing a small edge I pull more dollars out of my pocket and put them onto the table.

My question isn't whether this is a small edge I should pass up for some absurd reason, it's whether this is a situation in which calling has a better expectation than folding.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well first of all the story was Chip Reese went broke when he had a small edge and all his money on the table and second of all the moral of the story is terrible because it's a cash game and if I lose pushing a small edge I pull more dollars out of my pocket and put them onto the table.

My question isn't whether this is a small edge I should pass up for some absurd reason, it's whether this is a situation in which calling has a better expectation than folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

its really thin, but against the villain that you have explained i probably peel.. his range is probably a lot wider than most are assuming.. and he feels almost obligated to bet this razz card regardless of his hole cards.. this is something you see a lot of players do.. like theyre trying to win a race.

you can be sure that if he doesnt improve on 5th he will think twice about puting $160 in unless hes a lagtard and will peel basically anything once he gets involved.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
and he feels almost obligated to bet this razz card regardless of his hole cards.. this is something you see a lot of players do.. like theyre trying to win a race.

[/ QUOTE ]

bill, by peeling fourth, the OP is basically trying to win a race.

also, which hand range hand range can the villain have that has OP as a slight favorite?

i can't think of one.

edited to add: i dont' have two dimes at work so i can't run sims.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

Standard caveats aside (I'm still learning split-pot games, I'm bad at poker generally, I don't play this high often, I don't know this crowd, mixed games are more about exploiting uncertainties and meta-game stuff...), I post in threads like this because I often see high-stakes hands that just baffle me, and I'm hoping that there is something other than "they often have nothing here" that I can grasp with my meager poker mind. This seems like a situation where "they often have nothing here" isn't even a reason to chase half the pot.

Straight hi, you aren't involved in this hand at all. Straight Razz (ignore the bring-in rule for a moment), you maybe peel because some villains will defend with a big card, some pair cards have folded and your backdoor draws are better than theirs. In a split pot game, the Razz considerations don't apply because big cards in the hole hurt you for high and you wouldn't mind making a pair.

That villain could have a really wide range doesn't really make the hand any easier to play. A pair of Threes in the hole sucks for us, an Ace in the hole sucks for us, little cards suck for us...

What can you catch on Fifth to make you like your hand, and alternately what cards constitute "bad" cards for villain?

When I'm going to play in a confusing situation, where I never really know where I'm at, I like to have something going for me if it turns out I've made the right decisions -- an overlay of some kind. What's the bonus for playing here? What extra thing other than maybe getting our money back is there? How do you scoop? How do you get an extra bet?

If the answer to all these questions is "catch good twice while he bricks," then I guess it's not that big a mystery after all, but I'm hoping there's more to it than that.

Re: 80/160 Stud 8 simple 4th street spot
 

some hand ranges, very suprising to me that if villain has two broadway cards, OP's equity is considerable.

cards EV
4s 2s Td 5d 0.551
Qs 2c Jd 8d 0.449


4s 2s Td 5d 0.467
Ts Ac 2c 8d 0.533

4s 2s Td 5d 0.401
7s Ac 2c 8d 0.599


4s 2s Td 5d 0.329
Qs Qc 2c 8d 0.671