Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

Villain seemed to be solid TAGgish in 90 hands, 30/23/2 with a high went to SD of 45%. (kaandtn)

Thoughts on flop action are appreciated too but what's the river play? check/call, check/raise, bet/call, bet/fold?

Full Tilt Poker $15/$30 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
Hand Converter Tool from DeucesCracked.com

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">CO 3-bets</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">CO bets</font>, <font color="#FF0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#FF0000">CO 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#FF0000">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.83 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Thanks,
DeathDonkey

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

all i can say is that c/c is probably not the best. jj-kk prob decide that the river is so bad that you can possibly fold 8x here. so he'd check.

so i think you should bet. whether or not you should fold to a raise or not depends on this guy, but overall i think you should fold. you should very, very rarely actually have an ace here when you bet. that does not mean, whatsoever, that he should raise his jj-kk. so if he does raise the river, he should have trips+.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

I would not advise b/f as he definetly knows you dont have trips so he could bluff you with missed qj or spades or something.
b/c is bad.
c/c and c/r both seem good. Depends on flow etc. if you c/r you look more like a desperate bluff than an A. but than if he 3 bets you have to fold. I guess i would resort to c/c.

btw i expect him to valuetown 99-kk here atleast 90% of the time.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

What do you think of a turn donk here? I don't know how your opponent plays, but if he'll very rarely raise and might fold a bigger A, it definately seems worth it since he's always betting when checked to here.

Personally, I'd cap the flop against this guy and just bet the hand through. I think there's too high a liklihood of a 30/23/2 having just overcards here to call/call after his flop 3-bet.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
all i can say is that c/c is probably not the best. jj-kk prob decide that the river is so bad that you can possibly fold 8x here. so he'd check.

so i think you should bet. whether or not you should fold to a raise or not depends on this guy, but overall i think you should fold. you should very, very rarely actually have an ace here when you bet. that does not mean, whatsoever, that he should raise his jj-kk. so if he does raise the river, he should have trips+.

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Exactly my thoughts.

whodaman -- villain raising missed QJs here would be pretty stupid I think.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

here i like a bet/fold against most players, enough [censored] didnt get there that hes going to call you with a worse hand and thats a scary enough card that i dont want it to get checked through, i doubt you get bluffraised too often and your kicker is worthless, if hes notorious, id call, otherwise i think its a fold, most people dont think that most people will fold an ace here, because most wont, although with a very strong read it would be an interesting spot to raise like a pocket pair

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

why is b/f better than c/c..... do you guys really think he doesn't bet 99-kk here? Plus you never get bluffed and you let him bluff.
in order for us to have an A here we have to have A6, A8, or Ax of spades. So he should value bet with 99+ for sure.
what hands check behind the river that would call a donk? maybe 6x or 8x, but i don't think that makes up a big part of his range.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

"why is b/f better than c/c..... do you guys really think he doesn't bet 99-kk here? Plus you never get bluffed and you let him bluff."

I don't think the turns 99-KK into a bluff and i think it's a good bluff catcher. I think i b/f here 1/3 and the rest of the time c/c.

Also i c/c the flop about 1/4. Then i'd c/c turn and b/f river. River is 100% b/f if you c/c flop.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

You absolutely have to bet. Deciding to call a raise is player dependent. But lean towards folding. (somehow I totally enjoyed giving you advice..lol [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

FWIW there are many players in the 15/30 and 30/60 FTP 6-max games that will value bet JJ-KK, even when the river is an A like it is here.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

Here is an unrelated question I thought of:

If you are him, and you have something like KTs, and DD donks the river and then 3b your raise, is this an easy call for you? Assume that you have DD's stats and know he is at least decent.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

Nobody's ever folding a T here. Trust me because I have been in this exact spot where I realize my A is no good but decide the pot is big enough to turn my hand into a bluff and 3bet it. The result has been that I gift wrapped an extra 2 bets for them every time.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody's ever folding a T here. Trust me because I have been in this exact spot where I realize my A is no good but decide the pot is big enough to turn my hand into a bluff and 3bet it. The result has been that I gift wrapped an extra 2 bets for them every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

HM,

I was not suggesting that we 3b. I was asking an unrelated question that the hand made me think of. Do you think it would be correct to fold if you were him and faced a 3b. Obv almost no one actually would. Doesn't mean they are right tho.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

I have always thought it would be correct to fold because nobody would ever bluff there which is why I tried bluffing there.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

If you're asking if its possible for me to have AA and play it the way I played this hand, I'd say no. If you're asking if an opponent could believe I have AA and played it this way, then maybe (but they still wouldn't fold a ten no matter how hard they believed).

Results:

I bet intending to fold to a raise. He quickly called me with his big pair...of threes.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're asking if its possible for me to have AA and play it the way I played this hand, I'd say no. If you're asking if an opponent could believe I have AA and played it this way, then maybe (but they still wouldn't fold a ten no matter how hard they believed).

Results:

I bet intending to fold to a raise. He quickly called me with his big pair...of threes.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

Anyway see my post above for clarification. My question wasn't either of those things.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

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I have always thought it would be correct to fold because nobody would ever bluff there which is why I tried bluffing there.

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you give these guys way too much cred.

though fwiw, i have folded trips in that of situation before, but it was a 3-bet facing a 4-bet.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

b/f

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

I think its bet/fold, but I think it is kinda close given the board texture. He should not be raising the river with most of his range so I would be suspicious as to why he would raise it here. Even so, he should realize that you either have air, an A or a T so a bluffraise becomes pointless.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

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I have always thought it would be correct to fold because nobody would ever bluff there which is why I tried bluffing there.

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As have I, with disastrous results.

Re: Interesting 15/30 river 2
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're asking if its possible for me to have AA and play it the way I played this hand, I'd say no. If you're asking if an opponent could believe I have AA and played it this way, then maybe (but they still wouldn't fold a ten no matter how hard they believed).

Results:

I bet intending to fold to a raise. He quickly called me with his big pair...of threes.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

you rivered him you fish