$100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

Villain is 40/14/3 over 150 hands. Haven't seen much from him since I sat down though.

If the flop isn't all spades or I have one do I flat call flop?

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $116.70
BTN: $100
SB: $162.30
BB: $57.60

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG)
<font color="red">Hero raises to $5</font>, BTN folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $16</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $11

Flop: ($33) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $25</font>, Hero...?

Thanks,
ChipsAhoya

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

shove, get called by 88-JJ, any AsX or KsX

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

Few things

- I don't really like 5BB as a standard open here, but I guess it's not a huge thing. Is this normal for you?

- Has there been a lot of 3betting at this table? If I had an active image and there had been some 3betting going on, I would be inclined to 4bet this preflop. A call in position without a lot of history seems fine, though.

- If I had QhQs or the flop wasn't all spades I'd be inclined to shove over his flop lead 4-handed. His stats look pretty aggro/donkish, etc.

As played, this is tricky. A lot would depend on reads (has he been general laggro or passive, will he fire multiple barrels, does he only 3bet the nuts pre, etc.). I would probably call her and re-eval on the turn. Obv if the board 4 flushes and he leads we're folding. If an over falls and he leads I'm probably folding. If the turn bricks out I'm probably all in.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

fishsticks-

flatcalling this flop is terrible

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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I would probably call her and re-eval on the turn. Obv if the board 4 flushes and he leads we're folding. If an over falls and he leads I'm probably folding. If the turn bricks out I'm probably all in.

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if we flat the flop planning to fold the turn were giving up a huge amount of equity, way too often. vs this guy we have the nuts.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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fishsticks-

flatcalling this flop is terrible

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Whyfor? Given he's 40/14 I think his 3betting range is semi smallsh since he flat calls so often. He's a bad player and will define his hand for us. He can't/won't really bluff if a spade or over falls on the turn. If he has something like AsKh we're a slight dog now, but he'll still get it all in on a bricked turn with us when we're a big favorite.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

except hes going broke with any overpair and probably any decent spade combo, letting more cards come scares his overpairs and lets him hit his overvalued combo draw for a cheaper price

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

I'm not sure he stacks off with any overpair, two red nines might fold to a raise here but might put in some more money on a brick turn. I think he'll still pay on the turn for those same combo draws, except at a worse price with less equity. I'm also assuming he's not going to range merge or anything wild and will just play face up.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

shove is my std.

also, i dont really mind the call line, just alot of turns kill our action/etc. call/get it in on a blank turn where our equity is much higher isn't a horrible plan though imo.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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shove is my std.

also, i dont really mind the call line, just alot of turns kill our action/etc. call/get it in on a blank turn where our equity is much higher isn't a horrible plan though imo.

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second line seems like the best option IMO, if he has a spade draw hes prob not folding to a shove and if he has us beat he def isnt, so just call and get it in on a good turn with better equity against his draws and the chance that hes double barrel bluffing.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

you guys realize ikestoys is a 25/50nl winner and you're disagreeing with him..... ridiculous.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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you guys realize ikestoys is a 25/50nl winner and you're disagreeing with him..... ridiculous.

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instead of saying gib, u should give ur reasons for agreeing with a decision, im not saying hes wrong just saying that assuming hes right is whats ridiculous

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

There is no argument, a fish is donking into you, you have a good overpair in a reraised pot. Get the money in now before he draws out or a scarecard kills the action.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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except hes going broke with any overpair and probably any decent spade combo, letting more cards come scares his overpairs and lets him hit his overvalued combo draw for a cheaper price

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i think his range of hands which call a shove is weighed more towards hands that beat us/are a coinflip for a couple of reasons:
1)much less likely to be 3betting 8s (almost never), nines, tens and even jacks (lots of ppl at 100nl on FT cold call with jacks) pf than he is ak, queens, kings and aces.

2)i think its very possible that nines, tens and even jacks with no spades get away from this flop if we shove whereas if the turn blanks they will likely commit themselves oop.

3) we give villain another chance to bluff the turn if he is in fact bluffing (our hand prob seems pretty weak given a flat call on such a scary board).

4) we get away from ak/aq with 1 spade for much cheaper than if we had shoved if the turn comes a spade (which i dont think many ppl at this limit would bluff at).

So, although there r some bad cards that can come - spades, ace or king, the fact that we r never making ak/aq with a spade fold that flop and that ak with no spade only has 6 outs and aq with no spade 3 outs, makes me like cold calling and getting it in on a blank turn or trying to check down a scary turn which i doubt he bluffs on too often.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

if hes def a fish than i retract my comment about him getting away from overpairs but still think that he is more likely to raise the overpairs that beat us pf than those that we beat.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

i misread the action, he isnt donking the flop but still get it in here.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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you guys realize ikestoys is a 25/50nl winner and you're disagreeing with him..... ridiculous.

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thats one of the reasons why people here succeed is to challenge other lines...i hardly doubt that ike thinks his word is law. and everyone here is entitled to an opinion...

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

Ike, why is push good here? If he has As2o he has like 40% equity. It seems like maximizing your equity in this spot would best be served by flatting and getting it in on a safe turn. I guess if he has like JsJo then shoving is superior...

I seriously would like to understand the finer points of this spot, not trying to troll.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

i think against this villain, i am shoving and embracing the variance, because i think half of the deck is a bad card in either killing our action, or making us fold the best hand later in the hand, and our call on the flop is likely to shut out a lot of worse hands that might call our flop shove.

i may be off base b/c im still a bit drunk, but feel free to tell me so [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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fishsticks-

flatcalling this flop is terrible

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This post is worst

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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you guys realize ikestoys is a 25/50nl winner and you're disagreeing with him..... ridiculous.

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Ikestoys is one of my fav posters and I've specifically sought out his advice on more than one occassion when I needed advice on a hand. I also acknowledge he is much better at poker than me, and makes more much money at poker than I do. My post doesn't mean "ikestoys is wrong he has no clue", my post meant "geez, terrible? here's my thought process, tell me why it's messed up so I can improve".

Honestly, Speedlimits, wtf is wrong with you? Posting my thoughts and trying to get feedback and learn from a better player is being 'ridiculous'?

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

Assumptions:

- Given the huge gap between villains VPIP and PFR, he flat calls a ton and doesn't 3ball a ton, so his 3betting range is somewhat narrow.

- Villain will shut down on turn with AK (no spades) unimproved and not bluff us off the best hand

- Villain may fold two red tens to a push here, but will probably put more money in on the turn if it bricks (this one is shakey)

- If villain holds AsXx he will still get all in on a blank turn, where our equity is much higher. Same thing for TsTx,JsJx, etc. (the main thing here)

Also, if we're raising flop to charge a hand like AsKh, we're not really 'charging' it anything since we're a slight dog on the flop. It is actually charging us, since on it's ahead and a lot of turns could skyrocket our equity.

Anywho if those assumptions are true, I still like flat call flop &gt; push safe turn. If they are wrong, I guess I'd just push flop. If the flop was only 2flush or I had QsQx, like I said flop push would be super standard.

Someone please tell me *why* I'm wrong, because I really do want to know why my thinking is messed.

Re: $100 NL QQ r/r PF
 

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Ike, why is push good here? If he has As2o he has like 40% equity. It seems like maximizing your equity in this spot would best be served by flatting and getting it in on a safe turn. I guess if he has like JsJo then shoving is superior...

I seriously would like to understand the finer points of this spot, not trying to troll.

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we don't want scare cards hitting the turn. I get what you are saying. Not sure mathematically which one is best, i push here atm though.