10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

villain is Mizzles. He can take very strange lines - and seems to like to put moves on me. Thoughts?

Full Tilt Poker, $10/$20 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $2,000
Hero (CO): $2,542
BTN: $4,877.50
SB: $380
BB: $4,675

Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (CO)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $75</font>, Hero calls $75, 3 folds

Flop: ($180) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">UTG bets $140</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $490</font>, UTG calls $350

Turn: ($1,160) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero...

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

???

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

if he's folding 88 on the turn to a bet and c/shoving qq+ checking + reeval river would be best but since your hand is underrepped b/f?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

I don`t know this player but I`d assume you aren`t ahead of his ai range. So I`d check the turn and get some value on the river.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

If you are raising flop, don't see why you should stop betting now.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
???

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that indicates that this is an easy bet. I guess my issue is I rarely take this line - I'm usually rr'ing pre. In any event, I know what I read his hand for - but i'm curious if everyone agrees.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

Also, how bad is raising the flop? I did so mainly b/c of the villain, who can take very weird lines, and get stubborn w/ medium pairs, etc.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that indicates that this is an easy bet. I guess my issue is I rarely take this line - I'm usually rr'ing pre. In any event, I know what I read his hand for - but i'm curious if everyone agrees.

[/ QUOTE ]

I`d read his hand for an overpair. Either AA/KK looking to get it in on the turn or a medium one that is trying to read your actions on subsequent streets to make a decision. What are you reading him for? I am not decided on the flop raise yet but tend to think it is bad unless you have a pretty good read on him.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that indicates that this is an easy bet. I guess my issue is I rarely take this line - I'm usually rr'ing pre. In any event, I know what I read his hand for - but i'm curious if everyone agrees.

[/ QUOTE ]Flop is pretty bad if your not shoving this turn.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
???

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

I bet and hope he stacks off with 4's-10s which he probably won't do......This is tizerd right?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
???

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess that indicates that this is an easy bet. I guess my issue is I rarely take this line - I'm usually rr'ing pre. In any event, I know what I read his hand for - but i'm curious if everyone agrees.

[/ QUOTE ]Flop is pretty bad if your not shoving this turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I did shove turn (rightly or wrongly, some people have advocated checking behind, and trying to extract value on the river...which I think may be the superior line).

I don't want to give away too much of my read on him - as we play together quite a bit. But is raising the flop here ever a good idea?

And EM2 - yes, I believe this is Tizerd. And obviously I thought he was capable of calling w/ medium pairs - otherwise i would not have shoved [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

i don't see why a bet is advocated here. tizerd does take super weird lines but he's not calling with naked overs.

i'd take one off, see if he won't value-stack himself or think our hand range is weaker with a river bet than a turn bet.

curious - are you guys really shoving 45s, AJs, A5s, naked overs/air-ish bluffs here?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

against mizzles u should be getting this in every time here

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
against mizzles u should be getting this in every time here

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting it in here? On the turn? or VBing river?

I shoved turn, and when he snap-called QQ I felt like I had just been owned. But I do think he's capable of calling w/ 88 here - but I dunno. If I had to do it over again, I would check thru turn and take it from there.

The other issue is - if the turn comes 10d, and he leads for 850, can I call? Is he ever v-betting worse?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see why a bet is advocated here. tizerd does take super weird lines but he's not calling with naked overs.

i'd take one off, see if he won't value-stack himself or think our hand range is weaker with a river bet than a turn bet.

curious - are you guys really shoving 45s, AJs, A5s, naked overs/air-ish bluffs here?

[/ QUOTE ]

we are suggesting vshoving JJ in this spot. this obviously means that we are not bluffing those other hands. we cant do both.

i think you should shove here with JJ as long as you time down before you shove. i would like checking behind with a hand that has more equity vs overcards (AA, 33, 2x), but i certainly do not mind a check behind here.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

is checking turn that bad after raising flop?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

I like checking the turn here with plans of calling a river bet/Betting river when checked to vs mizzles here. The problem with betting/shoving here is that he will often play perfectly vs us....he might stack off on the turn with 99/TT but he's probably folding everything else.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

I don't like shoving the turn, but I would bet like $700 or something and obv call a shove. If the turn didn't kill all the draws you could have here then I don't mind shoving, but now you'd be pretty crazy to "semibluff" any kind of draw with three of a kind on the board.

Checking is also fine though.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

well yea i prefer raising smaller on flop and a small bet on turn. i guess i prefer checking if its between shove or check.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

yea betting small/calling shove&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;& gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt ;shoving the turn for sure. Not sure what I think is best between betting small and checking here though. Do you think mizzles is ever floating your flop raise with AK/AQ or something like that?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

would you fold AK/AQ to the flop raise?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
would you fold AK/AQ to the flop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes unless there is some sick history, but the OP stated that mizzles takes weird lines and likes to put moves on him so it seems possible.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

hm ok, i didnt think anybody folded AQ/AK on this flop.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
hm ok, i didnt think anybody folded AQ/AK on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 5/10 and up this is probably true. People tend to not make plays vs an UTG raiser on these types of flops IME at 2/4 and 3/6 though. As for the hand.......Jfish, if you have AK/AQ in mizzles spot, what is your plan for the rest of the hand after calling the flop?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

if i called i would definitely get it in on this turn, but im usually 3betting flop.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

1435 back 1160 in the pot... you really think he calls the flop raise with AK/AQ?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't see why a bet is advocated here. tizerd does take super weird lines but he's not calling with naked overs.

i'd take one off, see if he won't value-stack himself or think our hand range is weaker with a river bet than a turn bet.

curious - are you guys really shoving 45s, AJs, A5s, naked overs/air-ish bluffs here?

[/ QUOTE ]

we are suggesting vshoving JJ in this spot. this obviously means that we are not bluffing those other hands. we cant do both.

i think you should shove here with JJ as long as you time down before you shove. i would like checking behind with a hand that has more equity vs overcards (AA, 33, 2x), but i certainly do not mind a check behind here.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point was to wonder just how thin irishmafia can bet here. Range balancing, etc. If Mizzles is just going to get himself zeebo'd with 66, and that's how aggro the games are playing - fine. But I think there'd have to be a good number of actual bluffs in this range instead of just IrishMafia value-stacking himself on turn with 55-99 to make this bet profitable, no?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

dotn call pre if u are not getting all in here

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

You don't really think that do you?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

pretty much ya i do

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

Shoving here is the worst option

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
1435 back 1160 in the pot... you really think he calls the flop raise with AK/AQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

nah i dont. just a string of hypothetical questions with no point. standard.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

Isn't mizzles tight? I have him at 19/12. And I certainly don't think hes calling AK/AQ on this flop really ever, I don't believe that thats actually standard for you Jfish

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

Yeah I shouldn't have phrased that as a question, I just don't think you see that here often enough to be caring about.

As to shoving I actually usually just bet/call here but I don't see a big difference.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
dotn call pre if u are not getting all in here

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's say you have a sick read on villain that he raises 100% of hands UTG but he will only call your push in this spot w/ QQ+ so you decide not to get it all in here. Do you still advocate a fold preflop?

Extreme example but do you see how the two don't correlate?

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dotn call pre if u are not getting all in here

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's say you have a sick read on villain that he raises 100% of hands UTG but he will only call your push in this spot w/ QQ+ so you decide not to get it all in here. Do you still advocate a fold preflop?

Extreme example but do you see how the two don't correlate?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, i don't, because such a thing never happens.

the purpose for always shoving is simple - you don't repop pre to conceal the strength of your hand, and this is a perfect flop/turn for JJ.

the money's going in on some street.

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

That sounds mathematically correct to me!

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
That sounds mathematically correct to me!

[/ QUOTE ]

in your hypothetical you would repop PF 100000% of the time

Re: 10-20 v Mizzles w/ JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against mizzles u should be getting this in every time here

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting it in here? On the turn? or VBing river?

I shoved turn, and when he snap-called QQ I felt like I had just been owned. But I do think he's capable of calling w/ 88 here - but I dunno. If I had to do it over again, I would check thru turn and take it from there.

The other issue is - if the turn comes 10d, and he leads for 850, can I call? Is he ever v-betting worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

betting turn, hes a huge calling station