Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

EP player open raises and you are next to act with AA/KK/QQ/AK. I always thought the very standard play was to 3bet. In Ed's DVD though he suggests that if a raise is likely to knock all but one or fewer of the players out behind you that you should coldcall instead if others are likely to call behind you with an equity disadvantage.

Anybody like this play? Would this apply at all to online games?

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

I might cold call with KK or AA to build a bigger pot if the players behind me are likely to cold call as well because those hands will hold up more often against multiple hands. With QQ or AK i would definitly reraise to try and get heads up so my hand has a stronger chance to win unimproved.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

i would never coldcall AKo and QQ. i'm 3betting all the time w/players left to act behind.

AA/KK/AKs i think it's conceivable to coldcall. this would especially hold true if there was a player behind us that is exceptionally aggressive pf and might 3bet.

for the most part i don't like this because 4 bets aren't usually going in pf unless we 3bet. also, since an EP coldcall might induce a coldcalling fest i like it less as well. reverse implied odds weigh so heavily with these hands(esp. QQ/KK/AA) i still prefer to minimize the field as best we can and hope the original raisor has a good, second best hand he can pay us off with.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

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an EP coldcall might induce a coldcalling fest i like it less as well.

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That is what Ed is hoping will happen.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

I think this is a play that probably increases both your variance and win rate. The idea is that these hands are strong enough that you want to make the pot bigger, but the more players you let in pre-flop, the lower your odds of winning the pot. I could see doing this in a tight game where not many people are going to enter a raised pot without a strong hand, and would not call cold call or 4-bet without a premium hand. This essentially means a 3-bet would get it heads up with the raiser a lot of the time.

That probably applies to many online games. If you can accept the higher variance for the higher win rate, it is probably a good play. I don’t think it applies to most live LL games.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

I watched this video and agree with most of it but not this concept. Hes says just CCing here with AA and KK is good when there are players behind you that CC light but will play optimally against a 3-bet. Ive never seen a player that played loose against a raise but played well against a raise and a 3-bet, most players that CC too much are also players that will CC 3-bets too much.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

I rarely do this. I find the value that you gain immediately from 3 betting doesnt outweigh the value you gain by having getting people to make cold calls. Another thing that hasnt been mentioned, but is IMO the most important factor, is that if the people that are likely to cold call 2, but fold to 3 play really poorly postflop, calling makes more sense in that case.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

Are there any stats on this? I auto 3 bang unless im in the bb. when i first started i liked to get tricky w/AA KK but now i dont think its worth it.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

I really don't like this. The main thing is, what is our hand range when we CC first in at a normal table? Exactly AA or KK. However, if the table is so loose that you could start a cold-calling fest with an overcall, then we might CC a bit more loosely. On the other hand, if they're so loose they'll call for 2 bets, they'll probably just call for 3.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

The video does state that the table is very loose and that many will call the raise but not the 3-bet.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

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I really don't like this. The main thing is, what is our hand range when we CC first in at a normal table? Exactly AA or KK.

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Mine is AJs KQs AQs sometimes 88, 99, QJs, JTs. Also, if the only hand that youre cold calling are AA and KK, I dont think that they'll notice. It comes up so rarely that they wont be able to pick up a pattern.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

Yea in a small stakes game alot of folding ruins it I quit when the folding starts that burns all your money the reraise is if they will call, I have won all my money playing small stakes in super huge pots the small ones help play the blinds thats all. I still reraise cause mostly those I play with you would have some trouble knowing but passive players generally go the easy way so they would fold .

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

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Yea in a small stakes game alot of folding ruins it I quit when the folding starts that burns all your money the reraise is if they will call, I have won all my money playing small stakes in super huge pots the small ones help play the blinds thats all. I still reraise cause mostly those I play with you would have some trouble knowing but passive players generally go the easy way so they would fold .

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Dude. Separating this into standard English sentences would rock.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

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I really don't like this. The main thing is, what is our hand range when we CC first in at a normal table? Exactly AA or KK.

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Mine is AJs KQs AQs sometimes 88, 99, QJs, JTs. Also, if the only hand that youre cold calling are AA and KK, I dont think that they'll notice. It comes up so rarely that they wont be able to pick up a pattern.

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Ed specifically says not to do this against players that will suspect what you're doing. IIRC, he also says "maybe AKs," so he's excluding AKo.

My opponents are nearly as likely to CC 3 bets as 2, so I typically raise away.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

This type of play should only be done with very specific game conditions. The game must be weak, so you aren't missing opportunities to 4 bet. The game must also be fairly loose, but not so loose that people often call 2 bets cold. On the flip side, it can't be so tight that calling won't encourage others to call as well.

But don't try to generalize this and make a claim that this is never correct. Ed isn't an idiot. He would never make that play in most of the games that you all play in online.

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

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I think this is a play that probably increases both your variance and win rate. The idea is that these hands are strong enough that you want to make the pot bigger, but the more players you let in pre-flop, the lower your odds of winning the pot. I could see doing this in a tight game where not many people are going to enter a raised pot without a strong hand, and would not call cold call or 4-bet without a premium hand. This essentially means a 3-bet would get it heads up with the raiser a lot of the time.

That probably applies to many online games. If you can accept the higher variance for the higher win rate, it is probably a good play. I don’t think it applies to most live LL games.

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Yeah but in tight games people aren't going to be making a lot of preflop mistakes so if they do call you then it's probably a call you didnt really want AA or no.

Mack

Re: Coldcalling preflop with big hands (from Ed Miller DVD)
 

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Yeah but in tight games people aren't going to be making a lot of preflop mistakes so if they do call you then it's probably a call you didnt really want AA or no.

Mack

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If the action is one UTG raiser and you coldcall with AA, exactly what hand would you not want an overcall from?

That said I think this should basically never be done online; it's at most a small gain in EV that requires better play and risks giving others an exploitable read. It can come up in B&M's though and I think it is important for certian unusual small blind structures like the $2-$10 spread games I sometimes play in.