50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 ($83.60)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($49.35)</font>
<font color="#C00000">MP2 ($48.70)</font>
MP3 ($121.95)
CO ($52.15)
Button ($30.05)
SB ($9)
BB ($69.60)
UTG ($52.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $2.75</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls $2.25, UTG calls $2.25, Hero calls $2.25.

Flop: ($11.25) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $10</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($31.25) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: ($31.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $18</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $35.95 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $17.95.

Final Pot: $103.15

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

Raise preflop. Postflop is standard considering the flop line you took.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

sry that he had AK.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

I DO NOT LIKE IT!

Raise preflop. As played check-call the flop because the tlop is very dry and there is not any point to lead the flop. Just CHECK it and let original raiser to make CBET. You get extra value from AK, AQ, KQ and maybe small pairs.

As played bet the turn. And I dont know what I do on the river. Probably cry and call.

You played it very badly and friday evening is not excuse to make bad plays [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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As played bet the turn. And I dont know what I do on the river. Probably cry and call.


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Really? bet the turn? I never thought of bet/call on the flop then open again on the turn. Whats my motivation?

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

I lead the turn, but I think that is a mistake by me because I tend to lose a lot of villans with that move. I also think this villan is going to check the turn and get the rest in on the river with junk. It is pretty clear that the villan either flopped a set (not all that likely given his position and pf raise, the avg 50NL prob doesnt raise 22 or 66 in MP2) 10's arent likely because IDK if he min raises the flop with 10's. So that really puts him on a total retard bluff which you cant fold on the river anyway, but I def think you are beat on the river. You just cant fold a set the way it was played.

I would think it would be much easier to lead the turn for 2/3rds and call a small RRAI then give him a free card (potentially) because you want to trap him even though there is no hand that is drawing on that flop so what could you be betting $5 with and calling a raise? I think you made it clear that you had a hand on the flop...now its a matter of trying to get some value from his range that you have crushed.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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sry that he had AK.

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AK feels the need to take the control back by cbe..raising?

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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Really? bet the turn? I never thought of bet/call on the flop then open again on the turn. Whats my motivation?

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You made a very weak flop lead. I hate it. Villain is confused with a pair of queens and he just minraises to test your hand. You called and checked the turn. Villain is still confused, scared that you may check-raise him and he check behind you. And miracle card - queen came. You bet and villain shoved. Without queen he may just fold or call. I know it is very result oriented thinking but my point is as Xrod17 said: "I think you made it clear that you had a hand"

It means villain knows that you have a good hand and he dont pay you off without REAL hand and thats why you have to bet the turn to not give free chance to outdraw you. If he fold, so it be. He fold on the river too without real hand. But difference is - you dont give him free chance to get his miracle card on the river, what cuts your throat off.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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Really? bet the turn? I never thought of bet/call on the flop then open again on the turn. Whats my motivation?

[/ QUOTE ]

You made a very weak flop lead. I hate it. Villain is confused with a pair of queens and he just minraises to test your hand. You called and checked the turn. Villain is still confused, scared that you may check-raise him and he check behind you. And miracle card - queen came. You bet and villain shoved. Without queen he may just fold or call. I know it is very result oriented thinking but my point is as Xrod17 said: "I think you made it clear that you had a hand"

It means villain knows that you have a good hand and he dont pay you off without REAL hand and thats why you have to bet the turn to not give free chance to outdraw you. If he fold, so it be. He fold on the river too without real hand. But difference is - you dont give him free chance to get his miracle card on the river, what cuts your throat off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the quick thoughtful responses guys.


Here is the immediate, raw, unprocessed response that came after reading this:
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well the chance of him hitting an ace or king on the turn or the river is probably 100 times higher than catching runner runner jq.
and if he hit his a or k, he will probably call my all in bet or reraise all in
(considering his loose play on teh flop)
and i'll get paid off nicely
so i think my play is def a +ev play in the long run

Xrod17 said: "I think you made it clear that you had a hand"
how is it clear
its a non drawy board, yeah, but it was raised preflop
i can do that with two over cards, aj
and i think it'd be stupid not to call his minraise
cause it was his min raise
i get great pot odds
and also my check.. it can be seen as i'm scared of him
well two overs raise???
---

Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ] you played it fine. Anybody saying otherwise is being totally result oriented. If I lead the flop this is exactly how you should play it.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ] you played it fine. Anybody saying otherwise is being totally result oriented. If I lead the flop this is exactly how you should play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is being a little silly...

I clearly thought through the hand and his possible holdings and I felt the best play would be to lead the turn for value/charging to see a river card.

I don't mind the flop play, but I think calling a min raise on the flop like that I would feel that I have to lead the turn with the flopped nuts.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ] you played it fine. Anybody saying otherwise is being totally result oriented. If I lead the flop this is exactly how you should play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Result oriented? Please explain me why you would lead this dry flop? We force to fold AK correctly, also overpairs may take "defensive" line and to switch check-call mode.

I think the checking is better. We extract little more money from Ax, let him CBET.

And the flop lead is too small IMO.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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Really? bet the turn? I never thought of bet/call on the flop then open again on the turn. Whats my motivation?

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You made a very weak flop lead. I hate it. Villain is confused with a pair of queens and he just minraises to test your hand. You called and checked the turn. Villain is still confused, scared that you may check-raise him and he check behind you. And miracle card - queen came. You bet and villain shoved. Without queen he may just fold or call. I know it is very result oriented thinking but my point is as Xrod17 said: "I think you made it clear that you had a hand"

It means villain knows that you have a good hand and he dont pay you off without REAL hand and thats why you have to bet the turn to not give free chance to outdraw you. If he fold, so it be. He fold on the river too without real hand. But difference is - you dont give him free chance to get his miracle card on the river, what cuts your throat off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the quick thoughtful responses guys.


Here is the immediate, raw, unprocessed response that came after reading this:
---
well the chance of him hitting an ace or king on the turn or the river is probably 100 times higher than catching runner runner jq.
and if he hit his a or k, he will probably call my all in bet or reraise all in
(considering his loose play on teh flop)
and i'll get paid off nicely
so i think my play is def a +ev play in the long run

Xrod17 said: "I think you made it clear that you had a hand"
how is it clear
its a non drawy board, yeah, but it was raised preflop
i can do that with two over cards, aj
and i think it'd be stupid not to call his minraise
cause it was his min raise
i get great pot odds
and also my check.. it can be seen as i'm scared of him
well two overs raise???
---

Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

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What odds? Stacks are not deep enough for serious implied odds cosiderations. I have 0 problem with calling the min raise, but its not that different from 3 betting on the flop on such a dry board. I simply would lead this turn to get value from AA KK 1010 and if he turned a set of Q's so be it. I was never in the market for giving free cards, I dont check the turn for deception or pot control typically (probably a leak of sorts), but I def thing a close to pot sized lead on the turn for value is your best play.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

My goals on each street:

trying to buy the pot
call because of the pot odds
then a weak check
check on the turn is a good trapping move
inducing bluff

of course trapping is not the only purpose of checking
either i trap him, and get him a free card so he can bet the river

in this case, i was just unfortunate that he got 2 miracle cards

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

[ QUOTE ]
My goals on each street:

trying to buy the pot
call because of the pot odds
then a weak check
check on the turn is a good trapping move
inducing bluff

of course trapping is not the only purpose of checking
either i trap him, and get him a free card so he can bet the river

in this case, i was just unfortunate that he got 2 miracle cards

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has a hand there is no sense in trapping here IMO. If you bet he raises and you call his AI on the turn you most likely got max value for your set + charged him for his river card. If you check you will get the same result if he has a hand (most of the time I would say like 90%) and if he doesnt and has outs against you hes getting to see them free. This is a spot where you arent trapping anything I dont think. IDK if I am missing something here, but I think betting the turn is the way to go.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

So this one I decided to be more aggressive on the turn. Thoguhts? Trends you can sense?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">MP1 ($81.80)</font>
MP2 ($69.35)
CO ($116.20)
Button ($32.25)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($49.75)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($51.50)</font>
UTG+1 ($68.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $0.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.25) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $2.25</font>, Button folds, BB folds, Hero calls $2.25.

Turn: ($6.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $12</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $48.75 (All-In)</font>, MP1 calls $36.75.

River: ($104.25) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>
.

Final Pot: $104.25


i can make the same argument here i guess
flop a monster i can slow play
but i have a low set and obviously he has a q
because he played flop and raised me on the turn

so any pair on the board, a q, or his other card can kill me
which is a lot more outs then the jj ak hand
and although he's not sure if he's beat on the turn
he can't possibly fold qqq with k kicker
so push was the right move i think

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

No but a flop lead doesnt hurt here either. The main difference between this hand and the JJ one is the size of the pot. The pot was already inflated on the turn so the best option was a bet because the villan would likely commit with a lot of hands, but here you can argue for a flop bet to build a pot up and make sure you get it AI against a Q by the river. Other than that I dont see anything wrong here. NH!

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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No but a flop lead doesnt hurt here either. The main difference between this hand and the JJ one is the size of the pot. The pot was already inflated on the turn so the best option was a bet because the villan would likely commit with a lot of hands, but here you can argue for a flop bet to build a pot up and make sure you get it AI against a Q by the river. Other than that I dont see anything wrong here. NH!

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Is there much difference in getting all the chips in on the flop or turn?

I am going to make the following assumptions:
In order to get it all in on the flop, I open, he raises, i push, he calls.
In that case, I have 33, he has JQ,KQ,AQ,QQ

versus

Check calling the flop versus the same range JQ,KQ,AQ,QQ, but now along with TT-AA.
If the turn is T-A, i probably go broke vs those hands sometimes, but I also stack the times they dont hit boats.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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Results do not matter, but he did indeed have AK. That's why I think him hitting A/K gets him stacked as well...thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ] you played it fine. Anybody saying otherwise is being totally result oriented. If I lead the flop this is exactly how you should play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Result oriented? Please explain me why you would lead this dry flop? We force to fold AK correctly,

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Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

33 hand isn't played well IMO. Any queen is paying you off. Build the pot by betting the flop and people won't be suspicious because people don't lead strong hands. The only time you'll get a ton of action when somebody doesn't have the queen is when somebody sucks out with a bigger set. Doesn't really matter how you play this hand if somebody has a queen.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

I think both hands are played fine and I'm going to disagree and say that my favorite part of the first hand is the weak lead on the flop. Great bet.

Brunson writes about this in the super system. Leading into the raiser is better than the standard checking to the raiser as it builds a pot and really puts him in a bad spot when he raises you. He's more committed than he would have been had you simply called his c-bet. The weak lead perfectly induced the bluff you were looking for.

I like the check on the turn too, because the flop was so dry. Yes, he won, but only because he literally caught perfect runners. Don't be angry about this one, you played it fine.

I assume you lost the 33 hand, too. That sucks, but to be honest, there isn't enough behind for you to get off either of these hands.

You played both of them fine.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

I think the line taken in the JJ hand is a mixed one.

Also there's a strange dichotomy going on where people like the line taken but hero loses to most of the range he is up against on that river as played.

That's not results oriented at all. It's range oriented.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

Wait, nobody simply preferring 3 betting the flop? villain raised PF and is raising now, we have a good chance to get it in right here against an overpair.

P.S.: Sorry, haven't read the whole thread. If I'm saying something stupid just ignore me...

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

This used to be a big leak of mine. The river is not a blank, and we bet anyway.

Definitely bet out that turn and win the pot there.
The river re-raise looks sketchy with all the draw possibilities out there that just made their hand on the river. I've lost so much $$ this way.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

Not betting that turn is criminal. Give infinte odds to the inside straight draw that beats you.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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Not betting that turn is criminal. Give infinte odds to the inside straight draw that beats you.

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I'm sorry, but I just don't get why so many people are saying this. It sounds too results oriented for me to take it seriously.

The villian repopped our weak flop lead and based on that, why is everyone claiming that it was obvious that he had two overs and that checking the turn is giving him a free draw?

On one hand, we have some people getting mad about leading the flop because it forces AK to fold correctly and it seems like a lot of these people are the same ones who are claiming the AK was a likely holding of the villian's on the turn.

I really don't think the line is bad at all. The hero had every reason to expect a bet from an overpair on the turn. It sucks that it didn't come, but doesn't anyone else think this is a cooler? The villian caught a runner runner straight after bluff raising the flop.

Three betting the flop would have worked fine, but given how dry the board was, 60% of the time, I'm going to take the hero's line EXACTLY as is on the flop and turn.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

The hand was butchered in many ways, no I'm not being results oriented.

It was a big pot and he should of bet, if for no other reason it would make it easier to get the rest of the money in on the river.

The way this hand was played is a joke. He limp called preflop. bet/called the flop? Give me a break. You are begging for a cooler.

Protect your hands.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

I'm happy to argue this further. I hope we can all keep it civil. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

On the flop, the hero is over 98% to win the hand. The only way for the villian to win is to catch a queen AND a ten. I just don't think this is likely enough to worry about, because it basically never happens. This hand is an anomoly and that's why it's dangerous to draw conclusions from it.

If I'm the hero, i'm not going to three bet this flop because even if I knew he had overs, I want to give the villian the opportunity to draw because he is much more likely to hit one of his single overcards than BOTH of the runners that give him a straight.

Once we get to the turn, I still don't find it likely that given the play on the flop (raising our lead) that we could put him on two overs, but even if we somehow did, the villian is still under 5% to win the hand. PLUS, he is still more likely to hit a pair on the river that will pay us off (6 in the deck) than a straight (4 in the deck).

Don't get me wrong, I'm looking to check raise all in on the turn, but if he checks behind me (worst case scenerio), I STILL think he's more likely to get stacked than us.

(BTW, I'm not condoning the limp call with JJ preflop. I don't think for one second that this should be someone's standard preflop play with JJ.)

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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On the flop, the hero is over 98% to win the hand. The only way for the villian to win is to catch a queen AND a ten.

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This is the dichotomoy I was talking about earlier. We can't take the actual results and then say "well [censored] the other guy got lucky but our line is fine".

Someone give me a range for what our opponent has if he's even semi competent the way this hand played out. I'm going to say it's heavily weighted towards hands we really messed up our line against, and that's why I don't like the line much at all.

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

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On the flop, the hero is over 98% to win the hand. The only way for the villian to win is to catch a queen AND a ten.

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This is the dichotomoy I was talking about earlier. We can't take the actual results and then say "well [censored] the other guy got lucky but our line is fine".

Someone give me a range for what our opponent has if he's even semi competent the way this hand played out. I'm going to say it's heavily weighted towards hands we really messed up our line against, and that's why I don't like the line much at all.

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I believe that deep down, after the flop play, the hero wanted the villain to have TT,kk,aa,qa...but of course couldnt rule out qq,ak.

The hero did not rr the flop because he sees a greater EV play in extracting SOME bets from TT,AQ,AK vs the times when he can extract a stack from QQ-AA. He believes that stacking QQ-AA will accumulate a substantial amount of bets, if not the whole stack, vs those hands.

This goes in line with the thinking on the 33 vs KQ hand posted midway through this. it was a limped pot preflop, villain limped late he can have any two reasonable cards. because of the nature of the flop, we can probably say that he has 9q-aq something like 10% of the time, a PP 44-JJ something like 20% of the time, and connected random other playable hands 70% of the time. hero sees a lot more value giving free cards to the random other crap range and PP to extract bets rather than opening the flop (to be deceptive and easily stack a reasonable queen). does this make sense?

Re: 50NL...set play - ill c/r him on the turn...
 

I think it makes sense.
I just don't happen to agree with how it helped influence hero's decision making.

I really dislike the rationale that villain just got lucky with the river card and that the hand was played fine.

Put it this way... the way the hand is played "we are beaten" is a reasonable if not large part of villain's range by the river.