flop check
 

i post in the CO at a 6handed table. it was a good game with some known(to me) fish and LAGs.

UTG is standard 6max LAG(45/7/3.2) but he is less aggro preflop, but very often gets out of line postflop. he bets draws, any pair, and nothing(i.e. is very capable of bluffing).

bb is fish(60/3/.5). sb is unknown.

UTG limps, folds to me with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and i raise my post, fold to UTG who calls.

Flop(5.5sb): K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

he checks, i check it back.

Turn(2.75bb): 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

he bets, i call.

River(4.75bb): J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

he bets, i call.

try to put UTG on a hand or range of hands.

what line would you take in this hand? why is it better?

Re: flop check
 

I don't mind this line against villains like this. If you bet the flop and he c/rs, you're going to have a hard time continuing, plus he is probably going to bet the turn no matter what.

Re: flop check
 

Do you often check the flop heads up? Would this look suspicious? If not, then I would just bet it. If the Villian check-raises then either call down or raise the turn for a free showdown. If the villian just calls, then you could check the turn and induce a bluff on the end.

I don't like checking flops with vulnerable hands like this. One thing we know for sure is that we are taking this hand to showdown.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you often check the flop heads up?

[/ QUOTE ]

in case you missed it there is a wrinkle i've been working into my game against aggro players. here's the post.

i'm still experimenting on actual application, but the results have been good so far. sample is only over several thousand hands.

Re: flop check
 

James - is he a donk better with any piece of the board? If so then I like it unless he is the type to call all flops and make decisions on the turn, then you have to bet the flop. Always.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
James - is he a donk better with any piece of the board?

[/ QUOTE ]

he does donk pairs alot. he checkraises a fair amount as well, but that's usually only his stronger hands.

Re: flop check
 

Hmmm an interesting hand all around.

I usually don't post in the CO in short handed games.

I might check preflop.

As played, I probably bet the flop.

But, it does seem like a good spot for your pet line.

Re: flop check
 

no
Bet the flop. If he CRs, then you have a decision to make, and it's prob "call down" unless a 6 or a nine comes off.

This line is best reserved for spots where:
1. villain won't call with worse hand
2. If villain is behind, he has few outs
3. The pot is small
4. You will be in a bad spot if CRed
5. You are quite sure he will bluff turn and river with the vast vast majority of his range.

I think he will call with a worse hand
I think you will be in an OK spot if CRed (i.e. you may be ahead or have some nice outs)
You aren't in too bad of a spot if CRed, because you know that your effective odds are decent, and that you can fold vs. some key scare cards, or u can catch up on some of his hands that beat u

The only real condition that applies here is that the pot is semi small, but it's not THAT small. It's more than 5 sbs. KOing a six out draw has some nice value here.

Look for better spots for this line imo. Like when the flop is K72 rainbow and u have QQ or JJ.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
I might check preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you ever do this with A7s vs UTG's range?

Re: flop check
 

thanks for the feedback.

all,

what is your street-by-street line for this hand? bet, bet, bet or bet, bet, check or what? do you call a raise on the flop? what about the big streets? gimme your line.

Re: flop check
 

Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown? Or can we assume that "often gets out of line" doesn't extend to him 3-betting the turn with air?

If so and I check the flop (which I like), I'm raising the turn for a free showdown. If he's bluffing and folds, we lose 1BB of value, but we gain most of that back since a lot of his bluffing hands can beat us "by accident" on the river. Plus at lower limits (at B&M at least) this line looks strong enough to sometimes induce a laydown from limping hands like Q8s-98s that have us beat.

We've got position, might as well take advantage of it.

Mook

Re: flop check
 

c'mon guys. what are your turn and river lines after betting the flop.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course (I cant think of a river card I would fold, but there might be one). Think of this as manipulating the expected value. In the long run your going to extract more bets out of his bluffs than you will out of him by sucking out. You are forfeiting the ability to protect your hand for the profit you will make when he bets with air.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course (I cant think of a river card I would fold, but there might be one). Think of this as manipulating the expected value. In the long run your going to extract more bets out of his bluffs than you will out of him by sucking out. You are forfeiting the ability to protect your hand for the profit you will make when he bets with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

flop bet isn't just to protect our hand. it is also for value. This is a drawy board, and worse hands will call us.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course (I cant think of a river card I would fold, but there might be one). Think of this as manipulating the expected value. In the long run your going to extract more bets out of his bluffs than you will out of him by sucking out. You are forfeiting the ability to protect your hand for the profit you will make when he bets with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

flop bet isn't just to protect our hand. it is also for value. This is a drawy board, and worse hands will call us.

[/ QUOTE ]

a "drawy" board? i guess it does have the connected 7 and 8 but mainly it's a king high rainbow and that's it.

in actuality, based on the strength i've shown and that board it makes it a tough spot for alot of worse hands to call. he can't draw to something like a 6out overcard hand.

usually if he only calls the flop bet he has something like a gutshot which he folds after we get 1.5 bb in unless we're beat(half a big bet worse than checking the flop and calling down). if he holds an ace he's drawing to 3 outs assuming he has an overcard to my 7. he may have a pp giving him a 2 outer(he would 3bet any pp over my 7s).

given this guy and his tendencies if i check the flop he will fire the turn and river with that same gutshot, pp or complete air. in effect our money goes in as a bigger fave than simply betting the flop. we gain value from alot of his other holdings that won't peel in addition to those that would peel. not to mention we lose less when behind this way.

i would still like to know, what is your line on the turn and river if you bet the flop? what are you doing if raised on any street?

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
what is your line on the turn and river if you bet the flop? what are you doing if raised on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think given your read on villian that we need to be showdown bound.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is your line on the turn and river if you bet the flop? what are you doing if raised on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think given your read on villian that we need to be showdown bound.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what's your line?

Re: flop check
 

I like your line here [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Once we check behind with third pair on this board, are we committing ourselves to showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course (I cant think of a river card I would fold, but there might be one). Think of this as manipulating the expected value. In the long run your going to extract more bets out of his bluffs than you will out of him by sucking out. You are forfeiting the ability to protect your hand for the profit you will make when he bets with air.

[/ QUOTE ]

flop bet isn't just to protect our hand. it is also for value. This is a drawy board, and worse hands will call us.

[/ QUOTE ]

a "drawy" board? i guess it does have the connected 7 and 8 but mainly it's a king high rainbow and that's it.

in actuality, based on the strength i've shown and that board it makes it a tough spot for alot of worse hands to call. he can't draw to something like a 6out overcard hand.

usually if he only calls the flop bet he has something like a gutshot which he folds after we get 1.5 bb in unless we're beat(half a big bet worse than checking the flop and calling down). if he holds an ace he's drawing to 3 outs assuming he has an overcard to my 7. he may have a pp giving him a 2 outer(he would 3bet any pp over my 7s).

given this guy and his tendencies if i check the flop he will fire the turn and river with that same gutshot, pp or complete air. in effect our money goes in as a bigger fave than simply betting the flop. we gain value from alot of his other holdings that won't peel in addition to those that would peel. not to mention we lose less when behind this way.

i would still like to know, what is your line on the turn and river if you bet the flop? what are you doing if raised on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the board isn't super drawy. but 112/1081 of his holdings do give him a straight draw that has between 4-14 outs on you. Some others give him six outs which is almost worth protecting your hand against in a 5sb pot

If you know he will bet turn and river with an extremely high frequency regardless of his holdings, then you DO have an easy decision to check.

If I play it the other way and bet flop, and get CRed, I calldown unless a straight card comes off and I don't improve.

I will fold most turn cards to a CR as well.
If turn and river are 2, and then 3, I valuebet river.
I can't enumerate everything, but you get the idea.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]


in actuality, based on the strength i've shown and that board it makes it a tough spot for alot of worse hands to call. he can't draw to something like a 6out overcard hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is extremely important. I haven't played in over a year but at first glance I like your line here James.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is your line on the turn and river if you bet the flop? what are you doing if raised on any street?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think given your read on villian that we need to be showdown bound.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what's your line?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/bet/check or bet/bet/check seems best.

Re: flop check
 

If he tends to get out of line postflop, then why not raise the turn to see what he does, for future info. He could easily have mid suited connectors, low PP, A8s-A7s.

Re: flop check
 

James:

I like this.

But how far do would you take it?

holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone
holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone
holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone
holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone?

-rico

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
James:

I like this.

But how far do would you take it?

holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone
holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone
holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone
holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone?

-rico

[/ QUOTE ]

rico,

are we talking about the same opponent as in this hand?

this as much a function of your opponent as the cards in your hand and on the board(IMO).

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
James:

I like this.

But how far do would you take it?

holding AK on a Q86r or Q86 2-tone
holding AT on a J57r or J57 2-tone
holding 44 on a K73r or K73 2 tone
holding 22 on a Q56r or Q56 2-tone?

-rico

[/ QUOTE ]

rico,

are we talking about the same opponent as in this hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Same laggy postflop opponent. I agree that this is as much opponent driven as card driven.

--Rico

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he tends to get out of line postflop, then why not raise the turn to see what he does, for future info. He could easily have mid suited connectors, low PP, A8s-A7s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because against this type of opponent it's hard to decide if we should call down if he 3bets. Against a regular guy you fold. Against a truely crazy guy you call down. But this guy? Shrug.

Re: flop check
 

With A8 and this flop I bet the flop and go to showdown. You'd have a strong enough hand that you'd welcome aggression.

But one pip less and curiously enough your line seems to instinctively be a winner. I think it's because his checkraise range is going to include enough 8's to make calling down slightly less EV. [You get folds from worse hands and action from better/neutral ones]

But obviously his bet turn/bet river range is so wide that you get action from all kinds of air and 66-22.

This is weird and I'd like to see more examples in practice.

Re: flop check
 

i'm rushing so i'm not super-sold on these but at a first glance here:

“But how far do would you take it?”

It’s not often that I do anything all of the time when I play poker. That said there is probably some frequency I could arbitrarily assign based on my usual playing style.

If I feel like a free card is something that benefits me, I prefer to take it on the turn since it’s the more expensive street. If I think the free card is something that I will give to my opponent(to let them catch up or induce action later) I give it on the flop ‘cause it’s a small street.

I’ve also ignored whether the Ahigh hands are suited/unsuited and if I have any sort of backdoor frush draws.

assuming he only calls pf:

holding AK on a Q86r: usually check

AK on a Q86 2-tone: usually check

holding AT on a J57r: usually check

AT on a J57 2-tone: usually bet

holding 44 on a K73r: usually check

44 on a K73 2 tone: usually check

holding 22 on a Q56r: meh. Both but bet more often.

22 on a Q56 2-tone: meh. Both pretty evenly.

With weak hands against a very aggressive opponent, underplaying hands(even 22 or Ahigh) can lead to a profitable call down due to the high bluffing frequency. Certain boards can increase this bluffing frequency and as such should result in even more liberal calldowns. Larger pots can increase the profitability of a call down as well, since you are getting a better price that an aggressive villain is bluffing. Of course, as always the above are subject to the “it depends”rule. In other words, if I’ve been checking a lot of flops I need to balance, if I’ve been betting a lot of flops I need to balance, etc.

Re: flop check
 

If the guy isn't capable of 3-betting the turn with a draw or air, then I'd raise the turn after checking the flop. There's a strong possibility that turned 4s has given him a spade draw or a gutshot, and he'll have to call the raise. And if he 3-bets, it's an easy fold.

Additionally, the raise might fold out A8/99/TT.

If called, take a free SD.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the guy isn't capable of 3-betting the turn with a draw or air, then I'd raise the turn after checking the flop. There's a strong possibility that turned 4s has given him a spade draw or a gutshot, and he'll have to call the raise. And if he 3-bets, it's an easy fold.

Additionally, the raise might fold out A8/99/TT.

If called, take a free SD.

[/ QUOTE ]

a significant portion of our A7s value is coming from bluff equity. raising on the turn destroys this value. in addition, he probably is capable of 3betting a worse hand on the turn and as such the table may be turned on us and not only do we lose the bluff equity we gain by calling the turn we lose a second bet and the pot the times we are bluffed off the worse hand or could have called to try to outdraw a hand we are behind with outs.

as far as folding out A8, 99 and TT goes, do you *really* think he isn't 3betting 99 and TT pf? or even A8s as far as that goes? so that leaves A8o and a discounted A8s which is relatively few combos in relation to his total hand range.

an argument can be made for betting the flop. checking the flop and raising the turn does not make much sense to me in this situation given the villain, the pot size and our holding.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the guy isn't capable of 3-betting the turn with a draw or air, then I'd raise the turn after checking the flop. There's a strong possibility that turned 4s has given him a spade draw or a gutshot, and he'll have to call the raise. And if he 3-bets, it's an easy fold.

Additionally, the raise might fold out A8/99/TT.

If called, take a free SD.

[/ QUOTE ]

a significant portion of our A7s value is coming from bluff equity. raising on the turn destroys this value. in addition, he probably is capable of 3betting a worse hand on the turn and as such the table may be turned on us and not only do we lose the bluff equity we gain by calling the turn we lose a second bet and the pot the times we are bluffed off the worse hand or could have called to try to outdraw a hand we are behind with outs.

as far as folding out A8, 99 and TT goes, do you *really* think he isn't 3betting 99 and TT pf? or even A8s as far as that goes? so that leaves A8o and a discounted A8s which is relatively few combos in relation to his total hand range.

an argument can be made for betting the flop. checking the flop and raising the turn does not make much sense to me in this situation given the villain, the pot size and our holding.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am confused.

First, if he is capable of 3-betting the turn with worse hands, then what I said has no bearing.

Second, I thought you said he was not aggro PF, thereby making 99/TT possibilities.

And third, you are assuming he doesn't have a hand at all on the turn (or he has very little equity) and therefore you are assuming he will only fold to a raise. If this is the only possibility, then yes, of course, don't raise. But I don't think we can just assume he has air here; the turn card added a lot of draws, and if we are ahead, I think we ought to charge those draws the maximum. Especially if charging those draws costs us the same as calling down.

Re: flop check
 

[ QUOTE ]
First, if he is capable of 3-betting the turn with worse hands, then what I said has no bearing.

[/ QUOTE ]

gotcha.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I thought you said he was not aggro PF, thereby making 99/TT possibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah. good point. it's been a while since i posted this hand and actually forgot some of the details. he's a 7% pfr which is relatively nonaggro pf but we still need to include TT. i'll give you 99 is possibly a limp for him.

[ QUOTE ]
And third, you are assuming he doesn't have a hand at all on the turn (or he has very little equity) and therefore you are assuming he will only fold to a raise. If this is the only possibility, then yes, of course, don't raise. But I don't think we can just assume he has air here; the turn card added a lot of draws, and if we are ahead, I think we ought to charge those draws the maximum. Especially if charging those draws costs us the same as calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

most of the time he misses the flop. if he did hit the flop, he's usually betting. he does checkraise his good hands on occasion as well. since he mostly bets when he has a piece of the board, that would reinforce that he likely holds air or a very weak hand.

i'm not saying he never has a draw here, but i am saying it is a minority of the time he holds a draw. also, he bets the river improved or not so this means that calling is superior. why? because we still get 2 bets in the times he is drawing, we don't get faced with folding to a 3bet or putting 3 bets in as an significant underdog, and we get 2 bets in the times he has a bluff/very weak hand he would have folded to a turn raise. plus, there is some chance if we raise the turn and he calls we get faced with a river donk putting us in a tough position.

as far as "charging him to draw" and protecting our hand goes, given the pot size and his range this is not really that important. he's not folding a better hand and possibly 3betting a worse one. not a good recipe for a turn raise, but we discussed that prior. thanks for the feedback. i appreciate the debate.