Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

Hey guys - the UFC thread got me thinking why it is so much bigger than boxing amongst the young male demographic, and why in all demographics it has gained remarkedly on boxing over the past few years.

I don't want this thread to degrade into a mudslinging contest. The issue about which athletes are better, which is more gay, who wins a street fight Tyson or Fedor or any other such nonsense isnt the point. fwiw I enjoy both sports, and obviously anyone who gets to the top of either sport has to have a bunch of bravery and be an incredible athlete.

20 years ago boxing was pretty big. I can't remember the last time I heard people outside my boxing friends talk about 'the fight', except for DeLaHoya v. Mayweather. imo the problem isn't that people don't like boxing, it's a matter of marketing. There have been some exceptional fights in the past couple of years, but for whatever reason most people haven't seen them (I think Corrales - Castillo made it's way into the mainstream a bit......).

Here are some things that UFC does really well that boxing doesn't

i) The UFC decides who fights who. In boxing, the fighters/promoters do. So in UFC the best guys are going to fight each other, in boxing each guy acts in his best interests (which often leads to top fighters avoiding each other for easier fayre) which devalues the product offered.

ii) UFC has 4(?) weight classes and one champion in each. Boxing has 16 and 4 or 5 world champions in each division. There is the issue in MMA of multiple fighting organizations, but UFC seems to be solving that by monopolizing the best talent out there. So, in MMA, there are 4 legitimate world champions, average fan knows who they are, the champs have to fight 3 times a year, against the best opposition available. Compelling. Boxing is a mess.

iii) Network effects. People like to watch sports with other people. UFC has done a great job of appearing cool and in fashion, took off amongst some people, and right now if someone is indifferent between watching boxing or UFC on a Saturday night, they are more likely to plump for UFC, because that's what their buddies are watching.

iv) (Edited in): Boxing revolves around the heavyweight division and the HWs bloooooooow right now (and all the top ones are non-Americans). It's interesting that MMA seems to have a more even distribution of interest by weight than boxing. Any ideas why this is?

Also to a large extent MMA and boxing are substitute goods, so the rise of the UFC almost necessitates a fall in the popularity of boxing.

Note that boxers are still getting paid WAY more than MMA stars. This is also interesting.

There's a lot more to it than that, and hopefully you can provide some insight. Two weeks ago was a fight for the legitimate boxing middleweight championship of the world. It was on regular HBO, not PPV. It was one of the best MW title fights ever, a real great watch. For those of you who watch MMA, I'd like to know i) Did you know the fight was going on ii) Did you watch it, why/why not, iii) Did you hear about the result/that it was a great fight.

Also, please start your reply with the number of currently active boxers you can name (list them for bonus points [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

D

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

For the mainstream, its all about the heavy weights. And at the moment, they couldn't be more boring, less charismatic, and there's no grudge matches going on.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

I know what fight you are talking about. Jermaine Taylor vs. Kelly Pavlik. I think it really epitomizes how mma is taking over boxing. Kelly Pavlik is really unknown by me. I have a sporadic following with boxing, and I have no idea who Kelly Pavlik is. I guess he knocked out some people. Who knows?

Whereas in the mma realm, I know who the top five people are in a weight class. The top fighters face the top people continually. And how do I know this? Because I actually get to see them fight. Boxing, who knows when I will be able to see #3, #4, #5 fight? Hell, might take years before #1 faces anyone inside the top 20.

MMA, #1 fights #2. Always. There is a continual battle to see who #2 is too. You get to see the people come up. Its all shown on the same card.

So largely, it can be down to promotion. Boxing has down a horrific job promoting events. Largely due to the multitude of 3-4 letter orginizations that put out phony rankings. This guy is ranked #3 in WBO and #15 in IBF. WBO says #1 must fight this guy or we strip him of the belt, but IBF says you must fight this guy or we strip you. So there are 4-5 "champs" all at the same time. Ring magazine has helped this to some extent over the past couple of years, but not anywhere near the level that one organization (UFC) putting on all the fights could compare to.

Another problem as to why boxing is failing is that people like action. They like the KO. Naturally, heavyweight is the casual fans favorite division. That division is in a complete freefall to say the least in boxing.

MMA, really anything can happen at any moment. One slippage at any moment in positioning, you are either KOed, taken down, or submitted. Instantly. Much more exciting to watch than a technically sound boxing match.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

Dean,

You missed several of the most significant reasons:

1. MMA fights are far shorter and generally feature more action (lay and pray notwithstanding).
2. MMA fights are far more likely to end quickly, unexpectedly, and brutally.
3. MMA fights are perceived as more "real".

For the young male audience, those are critical.

I can probably name a couple dozen active fighters but to your point, years ago I could have named more.

J

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

I like boxing way more than mma. I like the middleweights for the speed/artistry, I love the heavyweights for the atmosphere, I cant get into mma because it just seems like one long mountain dew commercial

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

i like watching boxing more than MMA, but that is probably only because a couple of my friends are boxing fanatics and their families or themselves get like every PPV of any kind of significance.

As a casual fan, the number of free fights I can watch is a plus for me in MMA. I can watch big fights on basic cable a lot of the time, and I think the availability and the marketing is what brings me back.

All things equal, I'd rather watch two top boxers of almost any weight class fight, but it feels like it happens too infrequently.

Boxing seems to be huge with all the Filipino and Hispanic people I know. Weird, b/c i only know of manny. are there a ton of filipino boxers i don't know about?

the constant level of popularity across weight classes in MMA i think has to do with the knockout/dramatic stoppage potential being more equal than across boxing weight classes.

I don't know if this is correct or not, but I have the thought in the back of my head that a lot of guys on the UFC undercards have spent a fraction of the time developing their skills that most boxers who start fighting really early.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

As an old guy, I may (or may not) have some insight as to why boxing has gone into the tank....

1) Proliferation of weight classes and various sanctioning to the point where there are probably a hundred or so "world champions" running around. The fact that some left handed Bulgarian dyslexic has been crowned the smegmaweight champion by the WWBCF just doesn't seem to entrace people, for some reason.

2) PPV for all sorts of good, bad and "meh" fights - if you buy ONE turkey, it sort of leaves a bad taste in your mouth, and you're less likely to pony up the next time. And there have been a fair number of turkeys.

3) For better or worse, the heavyweight division has been beyond lousy for a long time - for the casual fan, that's pretty much all they care about.

4) The eternal mystery of why Don King hasn't been shot, stabbed, or found floating in an oil drum. He has done more than anyone else to take a shady, underhanded sport and run it down to the point where child molesters get better press.
It's hard to believe, but at one time SI had pretty much a weekly feature on boxing - now, unless Tyson is caught biting the head off a nun, no press. So no following.....

MM MD

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

As a kid, I would watch SportsCenter before going to school (elementary school). I enjoyed finding out the results of the big boxing matches. I'd say I was aware of who the big fighters were and such. I was introduced to MMA when a friend of mine and I rented a bunch of the early UFC VHS tapes in late middle school/high school. I didn't have enough to pony up for PPV, and I kind of forgot about it until last year. Since then, I've become extremely devoted to MMA and, as a result, combat sports. Which means, I am interested in boxing (and ADCC and K-1, etc.) because of my re-interest in MMA. I think the boxing vs. MMA debate is silly, and you should enjoy both.

Now, I have a few nitpicks with your post.

[ QUOTE ]

Here are some things that UFC does really well that boxing doesn't

i) The UFC decides who fights who. In boxing, the fighters/promoters do. So in UFC the best guys are going to fight each other, in boxing each guy acts in his best interests (which often leads to top fighters avoiding each other for easier fayre) which devalues the product offered.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best guys don't fight each other. It's gonna get a little better with the UFC buying Pride, but it looks like Fedor isn't going to sign. It's taken forever to get Wandy/Chuck, which may or may not happen. Guys like Gomi, Aoki, Kang, etc. etc. etc. are stuck in limbo right now and will probably stay in Japan. Big inter-promotional fights don't happen. It's still probably better than boxing, but it isn't perfect.

[ QUOTE ]
ii) UFC has 4(?) weight classes and one champion in each. Boxing has 16 and 4 or 5 world champions in each division. There is the issue in MMA of multiple fighting organizations, but UFC seems to be solving that by monopolizing the best talent out there. So, in MMA, there are 4 legitimate world champions, average fan knows who they are, the champs have to fight 3 times a year, against the best opposition available. Compelling. Boxing is a mess.

[/ QUOTE ]

UFC has 5 divisions - 155, 170, 185, 205, and 265. I actually think think there's room for 1 or two more. I'd like to see something more like 155, 165, 175, 185/190, 205, 265. There's a lot of guys in each weight class right now who are stuck between trying to fight at their more or less natural weight or having to cut 15-20 pounds to keep up with everyone else. Again, it's still probably better than boxing with it's 43 weight classes, but it can be improved upon.

[ QUOTE ]
iii) Network effects. People like to watch sports with other people. UFC has done a great job of appearing cool and in fashion, took off amongst some people, and right now if someone is indifferent between watching boxing or UFC on a Saturday night, they are more likely to plump for UFC, because that's what their buddies are watching.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with this, though I wish they'd cut out the pro wrestling/metal/macho [censored] with their marketing.

[ QUOTE ]
iv) (Edited in): Boxing revolves around the heavyweight division and the HWs bloooooooow right now (and all the top ones are non-Americans). It's interesting that MMA seems to have a more even distribution of interest by weight than boxing. Any ideas why this is?

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I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that there's only 5 divisions. There's definitely a lot less talent at HW than at 170-205.

And to the guy who said this:
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MMA, #1 fights #2. Always. There is a continual battle to see who #2 is too. You get to see the people come up. Its all shown on the same card.

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This is so far from the truth. The UFC doesn't even have official rankings (Shooto in Japan does though), so it's impossible to have #1 vs. #2 fights. The only rankings that exist are done by independent websites. The UFC sets up fights based on how they can market a card. Why else would Keith Jardine, coming off a loss to a newcomer, fight Chuck Liddell in the main event of UFC 76? Why did Randy Couture fight Tim Sylvia for the title at UFC 68?

FWIW, I think the UFC does a good job at putting together intriguing and relevant fights. But they certainly don't put #1 against #2, etc., because they don't have a (public) ranking system.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

One thing that I've kind of been thinking about...

Boxing:limit hold'em::MMA:NL hold'em

I hate using poker as an analogy, but does that make sense to anyone else?

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that I've kind of been thinking about...

Boxing:limit hold'em::MMA:NL hold'em

I hate using poker as an analogy, but does that make sense to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, it's an attempt to shoehorn an analogy where a simple comment about the less restrictive rules would do. Why it has to be mapped back to a card game makes little sense.

Edit: and these checkers, chess, roshambo analogies are equally tarded.

J

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

before MMA, boxing was the only "fighting" mainstrem, i think.

when MMA came out, people realized that boxing was just a technical punching game that didn't involve the sort of romanesque beatings that people crave when they watching fighting sports.

also i have a theory that numerous great athletes that would have chosen boxen as a sport 50 years ago are choosing sports like football/basketball today.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]

also i have a theory that numerous great athletes that would have chosen boxen as a sport 50 years ago are choosing sports like football/basketball today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard Max Kellerman say similar things to this.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
One thing that I've kind of been thinking about...

Boxing:limit hold'em::MMA:NL hold'em

I hate using poker as an analogy, but does that make sense to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a more apt analogy is mma = checkers, and boxing = chess. Not to diminish the psychology in mma, I realize there is a lot, but boxing is a little more of a precise sport imo, and mma while there is a lot of strategy is a little more imprecise.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing that I've kind of been thinking about...

Boxing:limit hold'em::MMA:NL hold'em

I hate using poker as an analogy, but does that make sense to anyone else?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a more apt analogy is mma = checkers, and boxing = chess. Not to diminish the psychology in mma, I realize there is a lot, but boxing is a little more of a precise sport imo, and mma while there is a lot of strategy is a little more imprecise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh...I don't really like the checkers/chess idea because gameplanning has become such a huge part of MMA as the talent gap has closed.

Edit: Roshambo would be a better fit than checkers, FWIW.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

also i have a theory that numerous great athletes that would have chosen boxen as a sport 50 years ago are choosing sports like football/basketball today.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard Max Kellerman say similar things to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, your unique theory is actually generally accepted as fact.

J

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

then that makes me awesome, since i havent listened to max since he was on ATH

hooray me!

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

i don't watch UFC but boxing is so boring. the majority of the fights just involve one person dominating the other from the first 3 seconds to the end. you already know who is going to win 9 seconds into the fight... boring.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
before MMA, boxing was the only "fighting" mainstrem, i think.

when MMA came out, people realized that boxing was just a technical punching game that didn't involve the sort of romanesque beatings that people crave when they watching fighting sports.

[/ QUOTE ] I think this is very true. Guys like watching other guys kick the crap out of each other, whether in a ring, in a movie, or a bar parking lot. People are more interested in watching a brutal fight than a "technical punching game." For a long time boxing was the most hardcore sport people were able to watch.

Another thing is that, compared to K-1 or Muay Thai, boxing is pretty dull. The former are more or less non-stop action with the possibility of any number of punches, kicks, knees, or elbows coming at any time. There's really only a few kinds of punches in boxing and most punches thrown end up getting blocked. I don't know much about any of these sports, and for all I know boxing could be 100x more complex, but as a casual fan I'd rather watch MMA or kickboxing.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like boxing way more than mma. I like the middleweights for the speed/artistry, I love the heavyweights for the atmosphere, I cant get into mma because it just seems like one long mountain dew commercial

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There isn't much MMA round here, but I agree with this from what I've seen. What we need is someone (Don King even) to buy up all the different governing bodies, merge them into one, and have people fight for one belt. There's easily enough talent out there that fights for the #4 spot would be great fights in most divisions. There's not much you can do about the lack of US heavyweights: Big guys in the US go into American football or basketball. I think that division is lost until someone starts marketing it well again, and the place to start with that is the lighter weights.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

I don't watch much boxing. The last boxing match I watched was De La Hoya/Mayweather back in the spring. After the fight, when they were interviewing them, they both looked completely fine. 100% unscathed. If two extremely high-level competitors can fight each other for 36 minutes, and walk away afterward like nothing happened, somethings seriously wrong with the sport. I've seen 2 out of shape drunks do more damage to eachother in a 45 second long bar fight. Both of these guys should have had to spend at least a few days in the hospital after this fight. If two guys can fight for that long, and nobody gets hurt, it's not even a fight IMO...more like glorified sparring. They need to move to smaller gloves or something.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If two guys can fight for that long, and nobody gets hurt, it's not even a fight IMO...more like glorified sparring. They need to move to smaller gloves or something.

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you like Gladiator?

When Amir Khan beat Willie Limmond earlier this year, he broke the guy's nose and jaw, but he looked fine. He even (mumbled) a few words in the post match interview. What more do you want exactly?

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

http://ca1n.c.yimg.jp/sportsnavi/200...ict/pict13.jpg


http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k1...Bonnar_494.jpg

http://vestiaire.yamamusha.free.fr/fedor6.jpg

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

I guess a lot of it has to do with the lack of high quality fights in boxing nowadays, which is almost always down to the promoters' inability to co-operate. I can't remember the last fight before Mayweather/DLH without local interest (i.e. Hatton or Khan) that I went out of my way to watch.

Doesn't help that the heavyweight division is ****ing terrible at the moment

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

Also there has been a lot of sick fixed fights in boxing, at least the ones we got to watch here in Denmark. Some years ago, we had Brian Nielsen, a heavyweight, who won like 48 consecutive bouts in some obscure boxing association (and was "world champ".

A lot of his games were so sick, because they dragged some poor drunk in off the street, and a lot of matches looked to be fixed (evidence of this has later surfaced)....

I never watch boxing any more, I find it SO boring when you have gotten used to watching Chuck Lidell, Randy Coutoure, Forrest Griffin, Vanderlei Silva etc etc etc...

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

also ufc has gotten alot more popular since they started using the wrestling marketing.

They pay the ufc guys more for knockouts and more for finishing the fights in 3 rounds. This makes the fights alot more exiting to a non martial arts practicing viewer.

People like to see stand up high kick knockouts. At first UFC was just ppl laying around on the mat for 40 minutes.

The new rules they have introduced have made ufc 100x more enjoyable to the average fan.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

Boxing has a long history and its still the "sweet science." I don't like MMA because its just dirty streetfighting. I watch boxing for the finess of guys like mayweather, taylor, etc etc....

There are certain types of boxers that I dont enjoy, such as gatti/ward type crap. I guess you have to love boxing for the skill, and if ur looking to see an ass beating, MMA is likely better for you.

Funny thing about me is, i love boxing, but hate violence. That's why i prefer fighters that are skillful and dont get hit alot like sugar ray leonard, ali etc etc.

Indy

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

oh and as another poster mentioned above, I HAVE NO IDEA WHY DON KING IS STILL ALLOWED TO PROMOTE ANYBODY!!!!!! I mean could you imagine what the poker community would do to a guy as shady as Don King? We'd never let him play another game again.

Indy

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

A few years ago there were a few boxing matches I saw (I was at best a casual fan) where the word "flurry" was thrown around. ODL would finish off the rounds with a series of quick punches, the commentators would say something like "great strategy by ODL, finishing off the round like that will help him with the judges". Basically most of the fights I saw were becoming performance pieces for the judges as much, or more, than they were fights. This is a big turnoff for a casual fan.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like MMA because its just dirty streetfighting.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

isn't MMA just a basic streetfight? Its not gonna have the bobbing and weaving of boxing right?

Indy

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
isn't MMA just a basic streetfight? Its not gonna have the bobbing and weaving of boxing right?

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

lol why don't you actually watch some MMA?

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

i like both, but i've never seen anything in mma that comes close to gatti/ward barrera/morales.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

i watch as much as i can stomache but not a lot.

Indy

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like both, but i've never seen anything in mma that comes close to gatti/ward barrera/morales.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not very knowledgeable about boxing, so I have to ask: What about those fights transcends anything you've seen in MMA? Skill? Excitement? Drama? Atmosphere?

Is it possible those fights were more enjoyable for you because you have a greater understanding or interest in boxing than MMA? I don't mean that to come off as an accusation or something, as I definitely am the other way around.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
isn't MMA just a basic streetfight? Its not gonna have the bobbing and weaving of boxing right?

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to check out a glorified street fight, try and find some Rio Heroes. It's a relatively new promotion that has like 3 rules (something like no strikes to the groin, no eye gouging, and something else). MMA is as much a "streetfight" as boxing is.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i like both, but i've never seen anything in mma that comes close to gatti/ward barrera/morales.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not very knowledgeable about boxing, so I have to ask: What about those fights transcends anything you've seen in MMA? Skill? Excitement? Drama? Atmosphere?

Is it possible those fights were more enjoyable for you because you have a greater understanding or interest in boxing than MMA? I don't mean that to come off as an accusation or something, as I definitely am the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

these are not fights that a boxing degen like myself would call "skillful"...actually among the boxing nuts i run with, these are the fights that we like the least. The gatti/ward was famous because of the heart that both fighters showed. The barrera/pacquiao fights are cool because of the nations that they represent and because in the first fight pacquiao came outta nowhere like a beast to upset barrera.

Very good fighters that exhibit skill in today's fight game are J Taylor, F Mayweather, M Cotto, Paul Willians, Pavlik etc etc

Indy

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

nothing has come close to leonard/hearns/hagler/duran - i was just giving some more recent stuff. and mayweather is the bomb, but when you have noone to fight you can't ever really be appreciated.

the fact that anyone now thinks pavlik is something special just demonstrates the current state of boxing.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

lapoker,

pavlik is a very legit fighter....i've followed the fight game carefully for years and its rare to see a guy almost knocked out cold in the second round come back, get his head back in the fight, and knock out an undefeated middleweight champion in round 7. pavlik is not the most finessed fighter, but there is no question that his jabs and right crosses are solid and that his heart is HUGE. I'd say Pavlik has the biggest heart and resiliency in boxing today.

Indy

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

[ QUOTE ]
pavlik is a very legit fighter....i've followed the fight game carefully for years and its rare to see a guy almost knocked out cold in the second round come back, get his head back in the fight, and knock out an undefeated middleweight champion in round 7. pavlik is not the most finessed fighter, but there is no question that his jabs and right crosses are solid and that his heart is HUGE. I'd say Pavlik has the biggest heart and resiliency in boxing today.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah dude i agree with most of this IN TODAY'S BOXING WORLD. that's my whole point.

Re: Why don\'t you watch boxing?
 

I am big fan of both. I follow MMA a bit closer these days, but have been a boxing fan since I was little.

Like others I would say boxings major problem is its marketing and promotion. The main problem I see is boxing has such a hard time building young talent.

Without real undercards on PPVs its near impossible for younger guys to get any sort of notoriety. All they can do is have their sketchy promoters put them against cans till they are 20-0 then hope they can win a fight against a former champ. Then half the time they are thrust into a PPV main event when no one knows who they are and no one buys it.

Ill also agree that boxing is taking a huge hit because of the lack of heavyweight talent. And that coming from guys choosing other sports over boxing. I do think this can be somewhat fixed though, with a governing body and unification of belts. A singular champ and regulation along with support for gyms in low income areas could so a lot to help boxing.

That being said I still think boxing is an incredible sport and a ton of fun to watch and participate it. Plus its ability to unify a community is amazing. I work for a local mma website and our main goal is just to get that community feel that boxing used to have (and still does in some places). There is such a mystique that goes with the toughest guys come from my city.

Ohh yeah..And bring back Friday night fights on one of the major networks (not HBO, SHO, or ESPN). Let De La Hoya/Kellerman/and an old school guy do it or some combination of well spoken and popular guys. Show PPV worthy fights every few months and show retro fight from guys like Willie Pep and old Ali fights.