How afraid of limpers should I be
 

Bonds post on "position" is nice and sweet and all well and good, but let's face it, even with 40BB at 50/100 and what not, it is almost INEVITABLE that you are going to be at a table where one player limps before you in the button these days. It can come from UTG, MP, MP1, it can come from a habitual limper, or just someone who doesn't care. How do you adjust for this in terms of hand range. Basically, hands that I love open raising with from late, like Q10, K10, 109s, etc., I find myself folding because the limper flat out scares me. I know he's gonna call near to 100% of the time and I'm going to be clueless postflop, even if he checks, because my cont. bet success percentage has sucked lately. Do I have to 2-bet on turns more on dry boards? I'm a little confused.

Barry

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

just call . let your position work for you. assess the action /stength of your hand/ texture of board and make a decision.if its raised by blinds preflop you can call suited multiway or fold

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

It all depends on the situation but generally from exp. early limper's usually have a small PP or big PP. I generally take the same action as you when I see this ( tighten up my requirment) maybe this is the wrong play since yes people do limp with weak hands in bad position. Like hamneg said if I have a hand worth seeing a flop then I let position, the board and other players actions decide the hand.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

It's funny Barry that you ask this question because this is the exact thing I've been struggling with lately. It seems as you stated every freaking time I have a marginal hand ready to raise with, someone limps in front. The thing that has been killing me lately is all the AA KK limpers lately, it seems to be at an all time high that people are limping monsters and I get sucked right into the trap.

I hate calling with QJ, Q10, KJ, K10, etc. because it seems lately, even when I hit my hand TP etc., the limper is slowplaying me with AA or KK and I go busto by the river. And as you said Barry, if I raise they call 100% of the time and I face a tough decision on the flop. I've been leaning toward folding these hands lately if someone limps in front, I don't even bother calling anymore. Lately I think I've been incorrectly fearing the early position limpers due to the shear number of times I've been burned by AA, KK, limping on me lately. It's almost as if I always assume they have a monster lately, SIGH!!! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

I think u have to tighten up your LP raising stds obv, but one thing that u can do is limp behind esp from CO and Button (with hands like the ones u mentioned.) This exploits his play, and makes it much tougher for OOP players to raise. If you're decent postflop, u have a pretty big edge here, since these limpers usually play too many hands and are very passive postflop.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

i never give limpers any credit at low stakes. i raise more hands from button/co when someone limps with any medium sized stack or bigger. this works the majority of the time.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

Why would you want to create a big pot with a trouble hand when you are almost certain that you are getting called?
If you feel like it, limp behind and use your position as an advantage.

Raising trouble hands only makes sense against villains who have a fold button.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

I guess so. But, I hate limping with marginal hands, I'm a "raise or gtfo" player unless I have suited connectors in nice multiways. However, I guess I just have to put limping on the button/CO after the first hour into my arsenal. Trying to bluff/semibluff into what usually becomes 3 - 4 players proves to be very hard for me, though, and more often than not, I have no a [censored] clue what to do by the turn. Live and learn, I guess.

Barry

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

One of the best notes i take throughout MTTs is: limp caller/limp folder and the slight variations between. If the guy is a weak tighty, raise tons of stuff up (esp. since you nkow you are likely getting a fold from the limper and your raise looks that much stronger to the blinds). if its a laptard usually fold. also, i hate ever limping behind later in tourney cuz blinds so often raise...even at small stakes.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

I just sent off a PM last night to address this as it's turning into a leak for me. It was pointed out, I'm prolly running bad which only brings on poor decisions out of frustration. Not getting paid on our hits and having strong position raised hands cbets blown off on rag flops gets aggravating. I think it takes a different mindset and level of patience to overcome a table full of donks open limping the 1000/2000 levels on our button w 30bb's.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

If limper is habitual than I raise and try to isolate them/out play them post flop. Same case if limper is a weak player. Early position limpers I am more afraid of than most players and fold or limp behind with anything reasonable.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

I'm FOS, but here's what I think.

I welcome limpers with AA-KK. The only time they get me is if I play my TPGK hands too aggressively, which I sometimes do; however, I'm gonna win a lot from them if I hit a good draw. So if this is bothering you, play a little more conservative with TPGK and control pot size. When you get big draws, play them a little more aggressively on the flop; their response to the flop bet will often give you an idea of what you are up against. If you hit the turn, you're ready to roll. The rest of the hand is just poker.

I've had AA-KK cracked too many times to ever play them slow, except in particular situations against specific villains. I love it when someone else plays them slow and lets me hit my 2-pair/set/trips/OESD/flush on the flop for cheap. In the end, it won't be cheap for them.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

You are right! It is not a given that the limper will call. Raise away and discover that yoou will get the blinds and a limp more often than you will be played with. You are so sound that you will outplay better hands with your position anyway. Have no fear.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

Early on in tournaments I find myself very entertained by the numerous limpers and the elation you get to see (or the conceit in more cases) of the person who takes down the pot thinking that they're playing good poker because they outwitted the four other limpers at the table or because they showed aggression after the flop and everyone else folded. Inevitably, I'm sitting at the table well into the middle and late rounds while those limpers are all gone.

Is that necessarily the way to go: waiting them out? No, but I think you can learn a lot more about them while they're playing that way then they learn about you and that information pays off big later on.

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

good post Barry...I still want the magic solution though...this happens to me a lot when blinds are high too and I want to steal in LP with QK A8ish type hands...I'm ready to push and a big stack limps in front so I usually dump it...

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

[ QUOTE ]
good post Barry...I still want the magic solution though...this happens to me a lot when blinds are high too and I want to steal in LP with QK A8ish type hands...I'm ready to push and a big stack limps in front so I usually dump it...

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, let me clarify. I'm not worried about limpers at 10/20, 15/30, 20/40, or even 30/60, for that matter, I couldn't give a [censored] about them, if I'm at that sort of table, I'll go get a snack and take a dump and just llimp alongside with suited connectors, raise my strong hands, and maybe put in an open raise with just about any two the first chance I get not to look like I'm that dormant. One raise is enough so that 15 mintues later if I get KK and I raise, I get 4 callers, so I'm OK.

I'm concerned about that period between 50/100, 60/120, 80/160, 100/200/25 when my stack is anywhere between 3500 and 5000 chips and I'm STILL at a table where UTG limps and two others follow. Or just UTG limps. That's what I'm concerned about, really. I guess the stated solution is to just tighten up your range and try to get in some small pots with Q10-QJ; K10-KJ; suited connectors 87s+; A9s+; A10o+; 22-77. Raise 88+; KQ+. Then play post flop accordingly. So:

1. tighten up raising range
2. Expand limping range a little to include rags you really hate to open large multis with, but can gauge really easily if you are head postflop. e.g., You have QT and the flop comes out Q 2 5. It's checked to you or one of the pussies bets 100 into 600. Well, ur ahead, so you can play accordingly. In the long run, I think that you win a pot like 900 or so enough to make it profitable.

3. Cont. bet some flops when checked to.

4. If UTG gets cute, that's OK, because at least now if you have a real hand, UTG or whomever can try to get cute again and get smacked with your [censored].

Barry

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

Barry...agree early on really doesnt matter that much but I like to keep overlimps to a minimum and usually in LP with implied odds hands...my problem is even later than what you mention...when blinds get higher and I'm in the 8-20 BB range...Get pushable hands when I am first in but get preempted by limpers who can afford to gamble

Re: How afraid of limpers should I be
 

I would use my position to play. but i would raise more often than not, establishing a tighter image and raising hard when there's many limpers work as well