AJo UTG
 

Mansion $100k.

I have 10.5k for table chip lead but only one stack is less than 3k. Blinds 200/400 10 ante I think. Blinds go up in a couple of minutes to 300/600 when the tournie becomes a total crapshoot.

I pick up AJo UTG and make it 1000 with a view to folding to any shove except from the short stack.

I'm pretty sure the folding part is good, once you've opened. Is the opening part good ten-handed?

Re: AJo UTG
 

i think im gonna be playing this hand strong or not at all. dependant on how the table is playing. where is the short stack in relation to you? effective stack sizes of otehr players? do you have a large stack or barely CL?

Re: AJo UTG
 

I'm the only person restealing light but I've not been opening much and have only shown down AA IIRC.

The SS is MP1/MP2. Rest of the stacks 5k+. I'm fairly sure that no one else would three-bet worse than AJ at this table. So I'm happy raise-folding, less happy but obviously going to call SS. The question is, is raising thus worthwhile?

Re: AJo UTG
 

I play the 100k on mansion quite a lot, and IMO very few of them are thinking players, and even fewer 2p2. if the relative stacks are ~5k i'd be open raisning stronger than 1k. probably 1.5k. if short stack is pushing his range will probably be quite wide and he's not in the best position to be doing that this hand, unless he has a monster. you can fold to a shove from another player and still remain CL.

Before it does become a crap shoot you want to be accumulating chips. AJ doesn't play too well multi way, so raising strong here i feel would be your best option. you have the HH?

also cant find a hand converter for Mansion...

Re: AJo UTG
 

Limp.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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Limp.

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why.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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Limp.

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why.

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I actually broke the habit of a poker lifetime and open limped a couple times in the first hour. I quite liked it.

It's just bad here but, for the sake of argument, limp/call, limp/fold, limp/raise? It can only 'depend' on the information I've given already in the thread, which is sufficient. 8/10 at the table have stacks between 5-10k. I have a little more. One has a little less. Almost all action is pf. Open limps are now very rare.

Re: AJo UTG
 

Raise >>>>> folding >>>> limping here IMO, that is....

Re: AJo UTG
 

I think the antes are insignificant enough to fold this UTG 10 handed.

Re: AJo UTG
 

I pretty much stopped playing AJo. Personally, I think it's horrific to play it UTG 10 handed.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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I play the 100k on mansion quite a lot, and IMO very few of them are thinking players, and even fewer 2p2. if the relative stacks are ~5k i'd be open raisning stronger than 1k. probably 1.5k. if short stack is pushing his range will probably be quite wide and he's not in the best position to be doing that this hand, unless he has a monster. you can fold to a shove from another player and still remain CL.

Before it does become a crap shoot you want to be accumulating chips. AJ doesn't play too well multi way, so raising strong here i feel would be your best option. you have the HH?

also cant find a hand converter for Mansion...

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I haven't played at Mansion much lately, but do people really fold that much more to a 3.5x raise than a 2.5x raise with 99+,AQ+? If people are tight, it's generally a good idea to raise less since you will have good FE anyway.

I'd personally be inclined to toss this PF, but I don't think raise/folding is necessarily too bad either. There's about a 4% chance that each player will pick up a hand that has you beat, so you're taking it down the requisite 2/3 of the time just about enough.

So I think raise = fold >>>>>> limp. I still think raising 2,5x is better, espec if raising 3,5x commits you to calling a push from more players.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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I pretty much stopped playing AJo. Personally, I think it's horrific to play it UTG 10 handed.

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This isn't Stars or FTP, you have to adjust to different players.

Re: AJo UTG
 

Harrington's logic is that you raise larger so that your decision to call a short stack's all-in move is easier. Guess I see both points of view.

Re: AJo UTG
 

lol limp jesus christ

I think this is a fold depending on the table.

Re: AJo UTG
 

fold > raise >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>&gt ; quit poker > limp


although raise > fold at some tables

Re: AJo UTG
 

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Harrington's logic is that you raise larger so that your decision to call a short stack's all-in move is easier. Guess I see both points of view.

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That's a pretty crappy reason. Does Harrington really say that? Then why not raise 4x, 5x, 6x?

Re: AJo UTG
 

this is a really easy fold.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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Harrington's logic is that you raise larger so that your decision to call a short stack's all-in move is easier. Guess I see both points of view.

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That's a pretty crappy reason. Does Harrington really say that? Then why not raise 4x, 5x, 6x?

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He does indeed say that. I believe the exact discussion in HOH2 was involving playing 88 in a similar situation.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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fold > raise >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>&gt ; quit poker > limp


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Comedian, ehh?

W/ this dinky ante, I fold. If antes were like 1/10th bb, I'd open.

Re: AJo UTG
 

Raising PF is totally fine. Matter of style more than anything IMO.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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I play the 100k on mansion quite a lot, and IMO very few of them are thinking players, and even fewer 2p2. if the relative stacks are ~5k i'd be open raisning stronger than 1k. probably 1.5k. if short stack is pushing his range will probably be quite wide and he's not in the best position to be doing that this hand, unless he has a monster. you can fold to a shove from another player and still remain CL.

Before it does become a crap shoot you want to be accumulating chips. AJ doesn't play too well multi way, so raising strong here i feel would be your best option. you have the HH?

also cant find a hand converter for Mansion...

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I haven't played at Mansion much lately, but do people really fold that much more to a 3.5x raise than a 2.5x raise with 99+,AQ+? If people are tight, it's generally a good idea to raise less since you will have good FE anyway.

I'd personally be inclined to toss this PF, but I don't think raise/folding is necessarily too bad either. There's about a 4% chance that each player will pick up a hand that has you beat, so you're taking it down the requisite 2/3 of the time just about enough.

So I think raise = fold >>>>>> limp. I still think raising 2,5x is better, espec if raising 3,5x commits you to calling a push from more players.

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Raising x 3.5 and folding to a shove still keeps you CL at the table. With blinds about to go up i'd be more inclined to play this hand here, although this would not be a standard play. As i said earlier in this situation I'm either playing this hand strong or not at all...

Re: AJo UTG
 

i never fold pf with these table conditions.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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i never fold pf with these table conditions.

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to a shove??? or open fold do you mean?

Re: AJo UTG
 

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Raising x 3.5 and folding to a shove still keeps you CL at the table. With blinds about to go up i'd be more inclined to play this hand here, although this would not be a standard play. As i said earlier in this situation I'm either playing this hand strong or not at all...

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I don't understand what this has to do with raising 3.5x rather than 2.5x.

Re: AJo UTG
 

I think raise size is irrelevant in terms of whether I call a shove. I'm calling SS whether I raise 1k or 1.5k. I'm folding to every one else whether I raise 1k or 1.5k.

If I'm getting called, I'd rather the pot was ~3k than ~4k because against most at the table it gives me room to both c-bet/fold or CRAI ir check-fold cheaply.

Anyway, thanks for the replies all. I think this is pretty close. I'm inclined to think this is a fold but that's natural because SS shoved a better hand and it held [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img] and I was in push/fold mode a few minutes later.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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Raising x 3.5 and folding to a shove still keeps you CL at the table. With blinds about to go up i'd be more inclined to play this hand here, although this would not be a standard play. As i said earlier in this situation I'm either playing this hand strong or not at all...

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I don't understand what this has to do with raising 3.5x rather than 2.5x.

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only raising 2.5 feels weak in this situation, and because of this you dont want to give someone the implied odds to call. with the blinds about to go up players would feel less inclined to commit a lot of chips here when effectively it is around 1/5 of there stack.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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Raising x 3.5 and folding to a shove still keeps you CL at the table. With blinds about to go up i'd be more inclined to play this hand here, although this would not be a standard play. As i said earlier in this situation I'm either playing this hand strong or not at all...

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I don't understand what this has to do with raising 3.5x rather than 2.5x.

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only raising 2.5 feels weak in this situation, and because of this you dont want to give someone the implied odds to call. with the blinds about to go up players would feel less inclined to commit a lot of chips here when effectively it is around 1/5 of there stack.

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They don't really have implied odds with stacks being this short. Also, oh hi there to raising 3.5x being riiiiight on the money for exactly the sort of hand people usually raise bigger than 3x with. Of course, this doesn't matter too much most of the time.

You're right that 2.5x is probably more likely to get called than 3.5x, but you risk more by going 3.5x, thereby making it ok to having to fold a higher percentage of the time. Personally, I very much doubt going to 3.5x is more profitable unless you have specific reads/there are a lot of loose players on the table.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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They don't really have implied odds with stacks being this short. Also, oh hi there to raising 3.5x being riiiiight on the money for exactly the sort of hand people usually raise bigger than 3x with. Of course, this doesn't matter too much most of the time.


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I'd do this with a wider range than just AJ. if thats what you mean.. if not, wtf do you mean?

Re: AJo UTG
 

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They don't really have implied odds with stacks being this short. Also, oh hi there to raising 3.5x being riiiiight on the money for exactly the sort of hand people usually raise bigger than 3x with. Of course, this doesn't matter too much most of the time.


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I'd do this with a wider range than just AJ. if thats what you mean.. if not, wtf do you mean?

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I mean that when someone raises bigger than 3x from EP, I usually put them on 88-QQ, AJ+, hands they don't really want to play due to being scared of postflop play/awkward stack/etc. Which is correct a surprising amount of the time.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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I mean that when someone raises bigger than 3x from EP, I usually put them on 88-QQ, AJ+, hands they don't really want to play due to being scared of postflop play/awkward stack/etc. Which is correct a surprising amount of the time.

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so you would call with a worse hand for more chips in hope to outdraw?

Re: AJo UTG
 

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I mean that when someone raises bigger than 3x from EP, I usually put them on 88-QQ, AJ+, hands they don't really want to play due to being scared of postflop play/awkward stack/etc. Which is correct a surprising amount of the time.

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so you would call with a worse hand for more chips in hope to outdraw?

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Eh no. It just means a raise like this might make it easier to put you on exactly the type of hand you have. Which is obviously bad.

Re: AJo UTG
 

88-QQ AJ+ is still quite a large range. I understand your thought process with this but surely raising only 2.5x bb creates a wider range of calling hands.

Re: AJo UTG
 

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88-QQ AJ+ is still quite a large range. I understand your thought process with this but surely raising only 2.5x bb creates a wider range of calling hands.

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There's a reason most people here raise 2.5x instead of 3.5x. Yes, you get called by a slightly wider range, but not enough that raising 3.5x is better. There's not much to be added for discussion anymore here now I think, lol.

Re: AJo UTG
 

M = 10500/700 = 15

M if you limp = 10100/700 = 14.5

M if you raise 3.5x = 9100 / 700 = 13

pot if limp and sb completes = 1300 / 700 = 2.15 M

pot if limp and get 1 non-blind caller + sb completes = 1700 / 700 = 2.5 M

pot if raise 3.5x and get bb call = 3000 / 7 = 4.15 M

pot if raise 3.5x and get 1 non-blind call = 3500 / 700 = 5 M

pot if raise 3.5x and get 1 non-blind call + bb = 4500 / 7 = 6.5 M

Is it worth it to play this hand if your raise is called? I think not. AJo is very tricky. There are 2 Ax above you. You have next to no chance of hitting a flush draw. You can only hit a single-ended straight draw.

The risk here is a very good chance of getting drawn into OOP post-flop play in a pot which is excessively large for AJo. You'll be playing for a pot which is 1/3 or more of your remaining M, and that's too much for AJo.

You could limp/fold and if you only get callers and hit flop your expected payoff will be reasonably in line with you outlay.

If you don't like limp/fold, then just fold this.

Re: AJo UTG
 

people are making this way too complicated. just make ur standard raise

Re: AJo UTG
 

no, djk, limp like baltosar says!

Re: AJo UTG
 

meh, I'd be happier with raising if they had real antes. as it stands, I'd just fold it.