KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $187.45
BB: $199.85
UTG: $27.80
MP: $100.90
CO: $101.25
BTN: $100

Pre-Flop: Khttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
4 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($7) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $28</font>

Villain is a 50/10/.84 over enough of a sample to know he's a fish. Whats my plan here? If I call, how do I play a blank turn vs a spade turn?

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

I 3bet this flop vs this guy. A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is a big part of his range.

Calling isn't good because a spade polarizes the fish's action to either AI or shutdown.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

It's a little worrisome since even though he's a fish he doesn't appear aggressive. I'm still calling flop though. On a blank turn I'd c/c again and probably lead out if a spade hits. If it blanks again on river and he fires big I'd probably lean toward a fold.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

3betting makes the hand easier to play but i dont think its the correct answer.

I prefer a call, because we can pot the turn for mega value on blanks.
Spade turns are tough though. not really sure what to do. c/c would be is my first reaction.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

I would 3bet and call shove. If he just called, I'd shove on the turn blank.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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3betting makes the hand easier to play but i dont think its the correct answer.


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lol? it isnt going to be much fun when he shoves now is it? im assuming by easy to play you mean its an easy fold if you 3bet and he shoves. but thats such a bad line, esp if he can push hands like AsT and whatever else.

flop just call and see what happens. if he fires big on the turn i would lean toward a fold given he doesnt appear to be very aggro. if turn is checked then fire almost any river.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

I think 3-betting would be terrible, against a guy that passive, I doubt he's doing this with a bare flush draw. 3-betting swells a pot where you're OOP and with a tricky hand. It also lets him release some hands you beat while ensuring you manage to lose the max when you're behind.

As for 3-betting and calling a shove, you might have outs, but you will definitely be behind and stone dead most of the time if an ultra-passive guy suddenly 4-bets all in on a monotone flop for 190 BBs.

I actually think folding would be better than 3-betting, but anyway just call, and check the turn, probably folding to a substantial bet.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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I would 3bet and call shove. If he just called, I'd
shove on the turn blank.

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if we 3-bet and villain shoves i'm going to be pretty inclined to fold, although given the stacks i guess i would have odds

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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lol? it isnt going to be much fun when he shoves now is it? im assuming by easy to play you mean its an easy fold if you 3bet and he shoves.


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No. I meant call a shove. We still have around 35% equity against his shoving range.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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lol? it isnt going to be much fun when he shoves now is it? im assuming by easy to play you mean its an easy fold if you 3bet and he shoves.


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No. I meant call a shove. We still have around 35% equity against his shoving range.

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What do you think his shoving range is?

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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lol? it isnt going to be much fun when he shoves now is it? im assuming by easy to play you mean its an easy fold if you 3bet and he shoves.


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No. I meant call a shove. We still have around 35% equity against his shoving range.

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What do you think his shoving range is?

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yeah. its difficult to say, but its probably A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (and he prob doesnt shove A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] every time) and any flush or set.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

I'm not sure, I really doubt a 50/10/.84 4bet shoves a flush draw. Tbh I don't think he'd even raise it, but I wasn't at the table [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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lol? it isnt going to be much fun when he shoves now is it? im assuming by easy to play you mean its an easy fold if you 3bet and he shoves.


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No. I meant call a shove. We still have around 35% equity against his shoving range.

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What do you think his shoving range is?

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Sets, 2pr and a whole bunch of flushes too numerous to list. Throw in the occasional QQs, JJs and AsX too.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $187.45
BB: $199.85
UTG: $27.80
MP: $100.90
CO: $101.25
BTN: $100

Pre-Flop: Khttp://www.legopoker.com/hh/images/diamond.gif K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
4 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($7) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $7</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to $28</font>

Villain is a 50/10/.84 over enough of a sample to know he's a fish. Whats my plan here? If I call, how do I play a blank turn vs a spade turn?

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Raising 4x in this spot where the stacks are this deep is not an attempt to get it in with the nut FD like it is when your stacks are 100bb. He's protecting his set. Easy call.

On the turn when the flush hits check and he'll check behind then bet river. If he's a super-passive fish though and he bets big again I'd assume he flopped the nut flush and fold.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

I'm pretty sure a guy with these stats will just call a 3-bet with the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I'm pretty sure we're toast or close to it against a 4-bet shove.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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I'm pretty sure a guy with these stats will just call a 3-bet with the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I'm pretty sure we're toast or close to it against a 4-bet shove.

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That doesn't make a 3bet wrong. If anything, that would be a case for a 3bet.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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I'm pretty sure a guy with these stats will just call a 3-bet with the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I'm pretty sure we're toast or close to it against a 4-bet shove.

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That doesn't make a 3bet wrong. If anything, that would be a case for a 3bet.

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the problem is, if we 3-bet and he shoves we are potentially priced in to call, but without knowing villains ranges its a very tough spot.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

I kinda fail to see how a person with those stats raises pot, even if he just wants to raise.

It is a big raise. Even when they raise, passive players raise less imo... Never had someone pot size raise me with these stats in my life tbh [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Could that be a betting tell?

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

To be honest, I don't hate a fold. I probably call, but I'm trying to keep the pot small.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

ok say i call and the turn is the 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. i check and he pots for about 63. easy fold at this point?

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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It is a big raise. Even when they raise, passive players raise less imo... Never had someone pot size raise me with these stats in my life tbh Could that be a betting tell?

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FYI at sites with the bet pot button, like full tilt, it is common even for fish to mash the button.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

I wouldn't 3-bet because he's just so passive. His 2-bet range on this flop is probably miles ahead of KsKd. And I sincerely doubt you have any folding equity.
Calling and folding are both pretty close. I call though...
Fold to any further significant bets on blanks.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

folding flop wouldn't be awful, honestly. we have a pretty hand against a terrible opponent, but a hand that has relatively poor strength on this board against this opponent if the action heats up.

i can't really peg the optimal pot size that i'd want to play here, but it's nowhere near 400bb and trying to showdown for less/avoid bad cards/get paid when ahead just isn't gonna happen.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

$79

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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I'm pretty sure a guy with these stats will just call a 3-bet with the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I'm pretty sure we're toast or close to it against a 4-bet shove.

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That doesn't make a 3bet wrong. If anything, that would be a case for a 3bet.

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the problem is, if we 3-bet and he shoves we are potentially priced in to call, but without knowing villains ranges its a very tough spot.

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His stats are awful, it's not like we're playing against some 20/17/3 tag.

We definitely call a 4bet shove. But the amount of times we take it down with a 3bet + the amount of times villain flat calls our 3bet and bricks the turn with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] are so much greater than the occasional time villain shoves. And even IF he shoves our equity is very good.

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

villain is a station so # of times our 3bet takes it down = 0
villain is a very passive station so the amount of time he raises the naked As = very close to 0

0.84 over a good sample? come on

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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ok say i call and the turn is the 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. i check and he pots for about 63. easy fold at this point?

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Yes, I think so

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

a fold after his raise is not a bad play, i don't think with his low aggro that he would raise u 4x with just a bare As

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

does the fact that we're 190BB deep override the fact that this is a blind vs blind battle?

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

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does the fact that we're 190BB deep override the fact that this is a blind vs blind battle?

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QFT Can't believe this has only been mentioned now. And ins't .84 not a ridiculous aggro rating for a 50/10?

BvB over pair + second nut flush draw, i'm happy to get more money in on the flop, but if he shoves then that's a nightmare :P

Re: KK vs fish, ~190bb deep
 

Donk blank turns, checking is just bad.