$3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Comments? Villain is unknown unfortunately...

3rd is I guess debateable but I was getting more than 4:1. Two dead 5s and a Q>K made me call it. I really thought about capping the river...

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.33 SB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.67 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

6th Street - (6.67 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises

River - (10.67 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets___raises

Total pot: (16.67 BB - $100)

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Betting 5th is maybe a little thin but it probably worked to your advantage in that villain probably thinks you're dumb. I think he has a 6 a lot on 6th but the pot is too big to fold for one bet. There are only 3 6s he could have, A2456, A3456 and 23456. I think he'd probably bet/raise with any of these. Would be a pity if he improved to the nuts but it happens. Capping here seems more reasonable than in the hand Spoon posted, because his board is not as bad and he was probably well ahead of you on 6th, and so he's going to expect to still be ahead unless you sucked out on him.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Fold third. Cap the river. You do realize that he would specifically have to have A23 down to beat you, right? Meanwhile, it's hard for him to put you on a Six. I'd be far more likely to put you on brain damage given how the hand's played thus far. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

jesus christ fold third

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

I would have done exactly this until 5th. Then I still would have done exactly this while yelling at myself for not folding. Then I would have done exactly what you did on 6th while telling myself I would brick the river and why do I get involved in stupid hands.

And then I would have put in every bet I could get him to call on the river.

PLEASE tell me we won....

prax<--living vicariously thru better players

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Yeah, 3rd is a fold - he did raise the entire field, it's not like he's in steal position. If he bricks 4th and you don't he probably won't fold.

Edit: and when I say probably, I mean, well, obviously he didn't.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
jesus christ fold third

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm getting 4:1 to outflop him and unlike other bring-in defenses where I suffer from reverse implied odds, I'm not going to be calling him down hoping he's stealing. I'm perfectly fine w/ folding 4th if we both catch good, unlike vs. a steal. Plus this is 3/6 so it increases the chances he won't know a234q > 985xx and/or will make other mistakes in the hand. Plus I'll have position for the whole hand unless something neat happens like him catching a K.

I'm not close to thinking dropping this particular b/i for this particular hand would be a good idea.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Well, yeah, but you're really getting 4:1 to catch up and a lot of the times that you catch up you're still slightly behind. It would be much better if your K was a T and his 5 was a 7. Are you going to fold if he catches a T and you get an 8? If not are you going to be happy with calling?

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah, but you're really getting 4:1 to catch up and a lot of the times that you catch up you're still slightly behind. It would be much better if your K was a T and his 5 was a 7. Are you going to fold if he catches a T and you get an 8? If not are you going to be happy with calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I'm reallydoing is paying $2 for the right to outflop him, which is profitable/breakeven. If I outflop him, I continue, which should on average also be profitable. Therefore I strongly believe this is a profitable play. I have less "all-in" equity here than if he was on a steal, but more favorable implied odds to make up for that.

If he catches a T and I catch an 8 I'm now ~38% and subsequently can't fold. I'd evaluate on the cards that came out, considering dead cards, etc.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

I guess what I'm getting at is that you're going to "almost" outflop him more than you'll actually outflop him. There are very few cards you can catch, and very few bricks he can catch, where you'll be an out-and-out favorite. If you don't mind calling getting 4:1 in order to be a 60:40 dog and continue, I guess that's OK. I can't really comment as to the long term success of such a ploy, but it's possibly profitable.

Folding really can't be wrong though. My gut feeling is that calling is somewhere around neutral and slightly -ev. Definitely +stdev

Edit: you're not a favorite on 4th - it's very close to neutral, and he caught the brickiest brick in the deck, and you got the babiest baby. You're never far behind on 4th though.

2nd edit: actually, outflopping him might be impossible. All you can hope to do is catch up to be like a 51:49 dog. I'm just saying is all.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

fold 3rd plz, cap river.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Comments? Villain is unknown unfortunately...

3rd is I guess debateable but I was getting more than 4:1. Two dead 5s and a Q>K made me call it. I really thought about capping the river...

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 5: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds


[/ QUOTE ]

Ante - 8 x 0.5 = $4.00 + $1.00 bring-in = $5.00 + his bet of $3.00 = $8.00 against your call of $2 so you are indeed getting 4 to 1 pot odds and approximately 4 to 1 to outflop him. What you need to understand is that this is to catch up. This is not a nut flush draw in holdem where you compare the pot odds directly to the outs you have - this play does not win those bets.

This approach of defending the bring in and only continuing when you do outflop him is a completely fallacious idea and is a serious leak because you know he has a 3 card hand and he knows you have a 2 card hand. Even if you outflop him, lets say for the sake of arguement that you become even money to win from here on out...

1 out of 5 times = now even money to win
4 out of 5 times = you fold

So using this horrible strategy, you will win a hand 1 out of 10 times, lose a hand 1 out of 10 times and lose 2/3s of a small bet 4 out of 5 times. Unless the player is a really bad chaser (and he would have to be real bad!), you actually need about 9 to 1 pot odds or better to make this call profitable - not 4 to 1 pot odds. You are never going to get 9 to 1 pot odds!

Your just basically throwing away $2 - 4 out of 5 times. You make this play 10 times and it will lose you on average $16....

This will improve your game dramatically - Its surprising how many of the people here that say that the call on third is break even or is ok - they really don't know what they are talking about... no offense. Its a horrible strategy, its really absolutely dreadful!

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This approach of defending the bring in and only continuing when you do outflop him is a completely fallacious idea and is a serious leak because you know he has a 3 card hand and he knows you have a 2 card hand. Even if you outflop him, lets say for the sake of arguement that you become even money to win from here on out...

1 out of 5 times = now even money to win
4 out of 5 times = you fold

So using this horrible strategy, you will win a hand 1 out of 10 times, lose a hand 1 out of 10 times and lose 2/3s of a small bet 4 out of 5 times. Unless the player is a really bad chaser (and he would have to be real bad!), you actually need about 9 to 1 pot odds or better to make this call profitable - not 4 to 1 pot odds. You are never going to get 9 to 1 pot odds!

[/ QUOTE ]

this is, like, entirely wrong.

that said, it's still a fold on third.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This approach of defending the bring in and only continuing when you do outflop him is a completely fallacious idea and is a serious leak because you know he has a 3 card hand and he knows you have a 2 card hand. Even if you outflop him, lets say for the sake of arguement that you become even money to win from here on out...

1 out of 5 times = now even money to win
4 out of 5 times = you fold

So using this horrible strategy, you will win a hand 1 out of 10 times, lose a hand 1 out of 10 times and lose 2/3s of a small bet 4 out of 5 times. Unless the player is a really bad chaser (and he would have to be real bad!), you actually need about 9 to 1 pot odds or better to make this call profitable - not 4 to 1 pot odds. You are never going to get 9 to 1 pot odds!

[/ QUOTE ]

this is, like, entirely wrong.

that said, it's still a fold on third.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it isn't a nut flush draw, but while I'm only 4:1 to outflop him, I'm actually only a 3:1 dog to win the hand (I can win when we both improve on 4th), so if we were all in at that point the call would be immediately profitable. Implied odds later in the hand can mean that it's unprofitable but I maintained that the implied odds wouldn't be very bad in this case.

I would sincerely hope on the 1/2 of the hands I win I win an extra small bet more than I lose on the hands I lose.

I'm interested in the streets between 3rd and 7th, too.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

The call on 3rd is horrible. There is a huge difference between calling someone is steal position who you know has random hole cards and calling someone who raised into a bunch of low cards and you know has at worst a smooth 8.

I wouldn't even call this raise with 368. The discount you are getting does not justify the call.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The call on 3rd is horrible. There is a huge difference between calling someone is steal position who you know has random hole cards and calling someone who raised into a bunch of low cards and you know has at worst a smooth 8.

I wouldn't even call this raise with 368. The discount you are getting does not justify the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This approach of defending the bring in and only continuing when you do outflop him is a completely fallacious idea and is a serious leak because you know he has a 3 card hand and he knows you have a 2 card hand. Even if you outflop him, lets say for the sake of arguement that you become even money to win from here on out...

1 out of 5 times = now even money to win
4 out of 5 times = you fold

So using this horrible strategy, you will win a hand 1 out of 10 times, lose a hand 1 out of 10 times and lose 2/3s of a small bet 4 out of 5 times. Unless the player is a really bad chaser (and he would have to be real bad!),

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I didn't have time to add up the money, but I'm winning defending the bring-in about 3.5 times out of ten. The difference is, losing a little when folding, winning a LOT when winning. Good folders turn into bad chasers when your crummy two-card hand starts to outpace him and he is sure his good hand will somehow catch up.

But that's me. Not saying anyone else should ever play that way.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Will you ever accept that you are wrong in this issue Prax? :P Do you have PT? How much have you won playing paint cards up?

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I didn't have time to add up the money, but I'm winning defending the bring-in about 3.5 times out of ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are you getting this statistic from? Also, you would really need to filter out times that
* your upcard is not that bad and his is not that good
* he's in steal position - it's generally OK to defend there getting 4:1 with 2 wheel cards down, or even 2 cards to a 6.
* Probably also need to filter out short-handed cases

I'm about to get dinner but I might see if I can write a script to get this data for me out of PT.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The call on 3rd is horrible. There is a huge difference between calling someone is steal position who you know has random hole cards and calling someone who raised into a bunch of low cards and you know has at worst a smooth 8.

I wouldn't even call this raise with 368. The discount you are getting does not justify the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you POSSIBLY not call w/ 368 there? You outflop him you win the pot... Also, the worst you can be is 42% on 3rd. Do you fold AK in the BB to a single raise vs. an unknown because he might have QQ?

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Yeah, I'm not folding 863 there - if you can't call 863 there, you can't call it anywhere, really, except to defend against steals. That seems way too tight.

And for your AK example, I'll call even if I *know* he has QQ obviously.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I disagree. I didn't have time to add up the money, but I'm winning defending the bring-in about 3.5 times out of ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where are you getting this statistic from? Also, you would really need to filter out times that
* your upcard is not that bad and his is not that good
* he's in steal position - it's generally OK to defend there getting 4:1 with 2 wheel cards down, or even 2 cards to a 6.
* Probably also need to filter out short-handed cases


[/ QUOTE ]
No, I don't need to filter any of that out. What I said was I am winning defending the bring-in about 3.5 times in ten. I made no caveats. The poster I was responding to made a blanket statement about defending - not in the OP's specific position, but just doing it. It sounded like he copied the whole thing right out of a book and the premise is simply undemonstrable.

Look - I didn't say I defended every time - I say, and maintain, and am not "wrong" about, the fact that intelligent defense is positive EV. For me. I get real tired of responses that seem to imply I make this stuff up. I don't.

How do you decide to defend? I have a set of rules for myself that work. If you don't want to defend, don't.

This isn't an issue about being "right or wrong." This is an issue of playing style and what you make work for you. I am not right. I am simply doing something my way that works for me. Seemed to work ok for Chips, too.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Will you ever accept that you are wrong in this issue Prax? :P Do you have PT? How much have you won playing paint cards up?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have PT. I also have no idea how to get that exact info. I don't know, really. But I might do one of my weird things like go thru a bunch of this by hand and look at the money and see how positive (or neg) it is.

If I'm correct, I am reserving the right to be COMPLETELY obnoxious about it. If I'm wrong I grant you and everyone else the right to flame me unmercifuly. UH - but only for like - 48 hours.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]

No, I don't need to filter any of that out. What I said was I am winning defending the bring-in about 3.5 times in ten. I made no caveats. The poster I was responding to made a blanket statement about defending - not in the OP's specific position, but just doing it. It sounded like he copied the whole thing right out of a book and the premise is simply undemonstrable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Who are you referring to? The only posts about not defending here have to do with the fact that the villain raised from early position into a field of low cards, and how this is different than defending from someone in steal position. I've glanced through the thread and I didn't see anything leap out that said "fold this no matter what"

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

I would (almost) never fold this to an obvious steal. I would (almost) always fold this to the guy acting right after the bring in. Varying would take a very player specific read or an unusual up card scenario.

Third street here isnt a very complex a razz situation.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The call on 3rd is horrible. There is a huge difference between calling someone is steal position who you know has random hole cards and calling someone who raised into a bunch of low cards and you know has at worst a smooth 8.

I wouldn't even call this raise with 368. The discount you are getting does not justify the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you POSSIBLY not call w/ 368 there? You outflop him you win the pot... Also, the worst you can be is 42% on 3rd. Do you fold AK in the BB to a single raise vs. an unknown because he might have QQ?

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]


Not true, you could be 34% with 368, since your cards are dead.

I don't think 368 is at all the equivalent of AK. It would be like folding A9o to an early position raise.

I am not going to always call when I know I am behind, just because I am not that much behind. You often wind up losing a big pot that way.


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3784266
pokenum -mc 500000 -r 2c 4s 5h - 3h 6h 8h / ts 4c qd 7h 5d 2d
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
4s 2c 5h 330188 66.04 169734 33.95 78 0.02 0.660
8h 6h 3h 169734 33.95 330188 66.04 78 0.02 0.340

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The call on 3rd is horrible. There is a huge difference between calling someone is steal position who you know has random hole cards and calling someone who raised into a bunch of low cards and you know has at worst a smooth 8.

I wouldn't even call this raise with 368. The discount you are getting does not justify the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you POSSIBLY not call w/ 368 there? You outflop him you win the pot... Also, the worst you can be is 42% on 3rd. Do you fold AK in the BB to a single raise vs. an unknown because he might have QQ?

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]


Not true, you could be 34% with 368, since your cards are dead.

I don't think 368 is at all the equivalent of AK. It would be like folding A9o to an early position raise.

I am not going to always call when I know I am behind, just because I am not that much behind. You often wind up losing a big pot that way.


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3784266
pokenum -mc 500000 -r 2c 4s 5h - 3h 6h 8h / ts 4c qd 7h 5d 2d
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
4s 2c 5h 330188 66.04 169734 33.95 78 0.02 0.660
8h 6h 3h 169734 33.95 330188 66.04 78 0.02 0.340

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I didn't account for dead cards, but still, if he bricks and you don't, you win the pot here. I can't imagine your statement meant you would call w/ 862 but not 863 because of dead cards.

368 is not A9o because A9o could be 20-25% vs. a huge range, domination, etc. W/ 863 it's exceedingly likely you're not worse than 40%.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

If you start with a wheel draw and brick on 4th, you should often play if you have any reasonable suspicion someone started light.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have PT. I also have no idea how to get that exact info. I don't know, really. But I might do one of my weird things like go thru a bunch of this by hand and look at the money and see how positive (or neg) it is.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're so inclined to do so, here's how:

Go to your General Info tab
Halfway down select the Categories tab
Maintain Categories...
Click Add and give it a name like "Paint in the Door"
Check off all the cards for your hole cards and only JQK for your door card.
Click Build Hand Patterns to make sure you're getting the right examples.
Click save, then close.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The call on 3rd is horrible. There is a huge difference between calling someone is steal position who you know has random hole cards and calling someone who raised into a bunch of low cards and you know has at worst a smooth 8.

I wouldn't even call this raise with 368. The discount you are getting does not justify the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can you POSSIBLY not call w/ 368 there? You outflop him you win the pot... Also, the worst you can be is 42% on 3rd. Do you fold AK in the BB to a single raise vs. an unknown because he might have QQ?

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]


Not true, you could be 34% with 368, since your cards are dead.

I don't think 368 is at all the equivalent of AK. It would be like folding A9o to an early position raise.

I am not going to always call when I know I am behind, just because I am not that much behind. You often wind up losing a big pot that way.


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3784266
pokenum -mc 500000 -r 2c 4s 5h - 3h 6h 8h / ts 4c qd 7h 5d 2d
Razz (7-card Stud A-5 Low): 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
4s 2c 5h 330188 66.04 169734 33.95 78 0.02 0.660
8h 6h 3h 169734 33.95 330188 66.04 78 0.02 0.340

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I didn't account for dead cards, but still, if he bricks and you don't, you win the pot here. I can't imagine your statement meant you would call w/ 862 but not 863 because of dead cards.

368 is not A9o because A9o could be 20-25% vs. a huge range, domination, etc. W/ 863 it's exceedingly likely you're not worse than 40%.

-ChipsAhoya

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually would not call an early position raise into a bunch of low cards with an 8 unless my cards were live. I do think this is somewhat similar to having a dominated hand in holdem. Maybe I'm a nit, but I win at mid limits playing this way.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who are you referring to?

[/ QUOTE ]

Matthew82's post was initially in response to the HH here but then seems to segue into a blanket condemnation of defending bring-ins.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

Well, he said

[ QUOTE ]

This approach of defending the bring in and only continuing when you do outflop him is a completely fallacious idea and is a serious leak because you know he has a 3 card hand and he knows you have a 2 card hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

(emphasis mine)

So he's talking about non-steal situations here. I don't agree 100% with what he said, though, but there are some good points in there.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're so inclined to do so, here's how:

Go to your General Info tab
Halfway down select the Categories tab
Maintain Categories...
Click Add and give it a name like "Paint in the Door"
Check off all the cards for your hole cards and only JQK for your door card.
Click Build Hand Patterns to make sure you're getting the right examples.
Click save, then close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, shoot. OK, I withdraw my idea of doing this, it all comes out odd. I still have to go thru the individual hands because a lot of them are not defending but just being in the hand when I was bring-in because no one raised. Common in micro razz. When I take those out, it looks like I am actually winning more than half the bring-ins I defend.

Then I found out, I only defend about 5% of the time someone does raise, so even if I am winning half of those, it's like a really small number. The only thing I know for sure is that I am losing about .33 cents per bring-in hand I defend on purpose and netting 1.43 on average the ones I win. But this is just .50/1 and only on PStars.

I find it all confusing and it gave me a headache. Anyway, I think I'll just keep doing what I'm doing until I find some compelling reason not to. I believe the way I defend does make me money in the long run. Not defending at all is a 100% loss.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, he said

[ QUOTE ]

This approach of defending the bring in and only continuing when you do outflop him is a completely fallacious idea and is a serious leak because you know he has a 3 card hand and he knows you have a 2 card hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

(emphasis mine)

So he's talking about non-steal situations here. I don't agree 100% with what he said, though, but there are some good points in there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think he is, I think he's talking about any time you defend HU against a raiser. He is making a false premise. His hypothesis depends on the raiser having three cards better than the bring-in. You know, some people steal from UTG, right? Some from the middle, some just always raise with two wheel cards and any J or better from any position. Some of these people are donkeys and some are pros. And sometimes, even if I assume three good cards, I will still defend the bring-in. And I think that's what he's saying is always a leak.

But unless the post-er wants to come in here and tell us just exactly what he did mean, I guess it's all moot, anyway.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

If you know enough about a player to put him on a steal from early position, that's one thing. Against an unknown it's safe to assume he has a three card hand. Anyway I feel his math is based on the premise that the bettor has a 3 card hand - you can be much more liberal with your defense if there is a good chance he has paint or a pair in the hole, obviously.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

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Anyway I feel his math is based on the premise that the bettor has a 3 card hand -

[/ QUOTE ]Right! And this is his "always a bad idea a big leak don't do it" scenario. I disagree. With him, not you.

I always assume they have three cards, anyway. Because as soon as I don't, they will.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

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Who are you referring to?

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Matthew82's post was initially in response to the HH here but then seems to segue into a blanket condemnation of defending bring-ins.

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I don't mind defending the bring in under the correct circumstances. People lose alot defending their bring-in and it is completely unnessesary.

You cannot play catch up for one street when you KNOW he has a good 3 card hand and he knows you have a 2 card hand. You are just throwing away good money attempting to get to a place where you are even money...

Now in this particular hand, the fact that he made an early position raise into that board, he needed a pretty good three card hand with no chance to be on a steal because of the cards behind him to act. Even for a complete donk it is almost a complete certainty that he has at least a 'fair' 3 card hand...

However if there was a situation where you are not sure the player has a 3 card hand this changes alot and you only call when your hand value justifies a call when the hand is played out... not playing for a single street.

You need to ask yourself questions like -

What is the chance of him having a decent 3 card hand?
What is my chances against a good 3 card hand?
What is my chances against a two card hand?
How much will I gain if he bricks and is forced to fold?
How well does my opponent play?

You have to factor in all these things and more....if you really wanted to do a full analysis - it would get very complex.

Another factor which no one has even touched apon is that on heads up hands, you actually prefer a board with a few more high cards showing in place of cards that pair yours except for your doorcard. Hidden pairs have value because under certain circumstances they can win you pots and give you free cards. The fact that two fives are out and that is his doorcard is a major disadvantage to you. Ok your unlikely to pair your five but this not an advantageous situation for you.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

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If you start with a wheel draw and brick on 4th, you should often play if you have any reasonable suspicion someone started light.

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Regardless of what you should do, this is what 90% of players will do, and if hero's 8 is in the door then 99% of villains are calling a bet on 4th (it might be 100% since TT doesn't play online). Thus, you can't figure on taking down the pot on 4th like ever in this hand.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

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If you know enough about a player to put him on a steal from early position, that's one thing. Against an unknown it's safe to assume he has a three card hand. Anyway I feel his math is based on the premise that the bettor has a 3 card hand - you can be much more liberal with your defense if there is a good chance he has paint or a pair in the hole, obviously.

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You can't put a player on a steal in early position. A straight steal may be possible, but he usually has a real hand, so you can't call in the bringin, as you could someone in steal position.

Re: $3/$6 interesting Razz hand.
 

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You know, some people steal from UTG, right? Some from the middle, some just always raise with two wheel cards and any J or better from any position. Some of these people are donkeys and some are pros.

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In razz, these categories are not mutually exclusive