Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

Is this a fold Preflop? If not, is it an open raise? Still trying to feel my way out. What about flop, is this a raise?

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (7.40 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: (8.70 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 12.70 B

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

err with a poster i basically never raise this. i think its a fold but with a loose passive game its ok to limp.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

Eh, limping's ok if the game's passive. Everything else is fine.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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err with a poster i basically never raise this. i think its a fold but with a loose passive game its ok to limp.

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Is the poster too far away to try and isolate with this pre-flop? I tend to at least think about isolating posters with hands like this.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

Why not raise the flop to get bigger Aces and splitting ones to fold.

Isolating posters was suggested earlier: Don't try that at this limit. Limping is fine in loose passive games.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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err with a poster i basically never raise this. i think its a fold but with a loose passive game its ok to limp.

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Is the poster too far away to try and isolate with this pre-flop? I tend to at least think about isolating posters with hands like this.

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If the poster's on your right, you can try this, but not here. Trying to isolate here is basically the same thing as open-raising it, except with an extra BB in the pot. Not a good idea imo.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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err with a poster i basically never raise this. i think its a fold but with a loose passive game its ok to limp.

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Is the poster too far away to try and isolate with this pre-flop? I tend to at least think about isolating posters with hands like this.

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We could try, but we have somethings against us:
1. We are still pretty early in MP1 and others still may come along
2. We are OOP vs poster
3. BB acts after poster PF thus if poster calls, BB is more likely to call.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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Why not raise the flop to get bigger Aces and splitting ones to fold.

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Bigger aces have, in order, an oesd, 3p, 2p and TP + TK, and two overcards. Which of those do you expect to fold?

Edit: Hint, you're the one that said not to try isolating posters at this limit...

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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err with a poster i basically never raise this. i think its a fold but with a loose passive game its ok to limp.

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Is the poster too far away to try and isolate with this pre-flop? I tend to at least think about isolating posters with hands like this.

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how and why are you trying to isolate being oop?

OP, limping is fine, folding is ok, I think raising this at that limit without any reads on how the table is playing is too loose. Most guys will say open limping is bad, this is borderline I think. Weak suited Aces, meh, take em or leave em. I guess with the poster it's ok.

I really like the way you played the rest of the hand though.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

played standardly

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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err with a poster i basically never raise this. i think its a fold but with a loose passive game its ok to limp.

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Is the poster too far away to try and isolate with this pre-flop? I tend to at least think about isolating posters with hands like this.

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how and why are you trying to isolate being oop?



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I'd love to get rid of everyone but the poster and maybe the blinds here. Granted, this worked better when players payed scant attention to the table. I agree that basically this turns into a long distance steal which requires a pretty good read on table conditions.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

I don't see too much off here. Preflop raise changes things but limping with this in that kinda of game is probably safer.

flop call is correct considering the power of your hand is in the draws not the high card, you don't want the other player to fold out. He did anyways but many peel one.

Turn and river are of course correct.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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Why not raise the flop to get bigger Aces and splitting ones to fold.


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Do we really want a bigger Ace to fold here? Are we showing down our Ace-high if we miss our draws?

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great. Basically, coming over from 6max NL i'm still trying to get the lay of the land in limit. I'm almost through my first read of SSHE and i really think my mistake was preflop. In looking back, I think this is a fold. Is it correct to limp this after a few callers in late position? What about an open raise in HJ or CO? Also, I was questioning flop action because obviously in NL i play a lot stronger with this type of holding. Did i turn it down too much on flop? Shouldn't I be pushing the pedal down here? I count 9 hearts, figuring 1.5 for the 7's and about 1.5 for the 3 aces. Is 12 outs not enough to be pushing this 3 handed?

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

shlip its definitely not a fold preflop at this level. I usually raise it first in but calling is ok considering the strength of the hand and the fact that the range for limping is large in these games.

If you go 6 max of course limping this is a mistake.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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Wow, thanks for all the responses. You guys are great. Basically, coming over from 6max NL i'm still trying to get the lay of the land in limit. I'm almost through my first read of SSHE and i really think my mistake was preflop. In looking back, I think this is a fold. Is it correct to limp this after a few callers in late position? What about an open raise in HJ or CO? Also, I was questioning flop action because obviously in NL i play a lot stronger with this type of holding. Did i turn it down too much on flop? Shouldn't I be pushing the pedal down here? I count 9 hearts, figuring 1.5 for the 7's and about 1.5 for the 3 aces. Is 12 outs not enough to be pushing this 3 handed?

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Yes, it would be fine to limp in late position after a few limpers.

If the table is not too loose, I would consider open raising from the CO. Otherwise I would open raise from the button.

On the flop, dont forget that you are playing against a preflop raiser. If you raise, you risk being 3-bet.

Also you dont really want to drive out the player behind you, while you are still drawing.

FWIW, I would also only plan on calling BB's flop bet if I was playing NL (dependant upon the size of BB's bet and stack sizes).

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

Is it just me or don't we want alot of players in a pot with a hand like this one ? A nut flush draw against 1 player is not what I'm personally looking for. The more players, the more odds you get trying to draw and the bigger the pot usually is. I like to limp with a hand like this and will call a standard pf raise if there are a couple of players who also called.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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A nut flush draw against 1 player is not what I'm personally looking for.

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Not to be nitty - but he isn't drawing to a certain nut flush. But yeah, you want more players in with this draw. But with 12 outs, he is almost 1:1 to make his hand by the river. So yeah, having MP2 come along for the ride obviously adds value to his Flop call, but even HU he is in a profitable situation - especially since his villian has been the aggressor on every street so far.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

I was discussing this hand in AIM with DM, and he asked me to post my thoughts.

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played standardly

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I would actually say that preflop and the flop are standard and well-played. Raising this first in preflop isn't such a great idea at a full table without a read that the table is nitty-tight, and even then you've got a poster that's unlikely to fold. Similarly, you're drawing on the flop, why do you want to chance driving out the player behind you?

(This is part of my tirade against analyzing strategy wrt nano-limit hands. Any time you see the word "SHOULD", that means "don't answer me by saying, 'this is .05/.10, the players are horrible, they'll call with anything,'" because that's not helpful. Assume the Villan is at least rational, if not decent.)

Then we get to the turn. We caught our one-card, ass-end gutshot and we're heads-up. What hands, given the way Villan played preflop and the flop SHOULD we be getting value from with this raise? Overpairs/two-pair/TPTK might call but SHOULD fold. Worse flush draws can call. Sets can call. What hands are we getting pwned by? Jx, and there are a LOT of those in Villan's range, but because of our flush draw we can't fold if we get 3bet, as we SHOULD, by Jx.

Let's move to the river. Now he's donking into us when the third flush card hits and pairs the board. That's SHOULDn't be Jx, anymore, given that Hero raised the turn and Vill smooth-called. Now we're down to worse flushes and full houses in his range. What worse flushes raise pf from the BB? KhJh, period. QhJh is just about to rip us a new one, as is TT/88/etc. There's only one combo of cards that this river raise SHOULD be for value against.

Now, I post this knowing there's going to be a flurry of "zomg, but it's .05/.10!" responses, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering. My point is, if we're talking strat about .02/.04 and .05/.10 hands, let's at least talk about it reasonably. Because you're in position, I don't think there's any value to raising either of these streets; OOP, each one should be a b/cc.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

Nice post . Don't let the 'haters' make you stop posting such nice analyzes [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

zomg means what exactly and while I am asking stupid question what is this tl;ld or whatever it is .....too lazy to look it up.


It's ironic but the mini micros and the micros really are two different beasts.

The micros today emulate the 3/6 5/10 live players and the mini micros are almost a hybrid of bad 3/6 live table drunkfests.

I think the key to remember at least when I am posting is to respond to posts like its a real lvl where players aren't complete idiots.

I don't think I change my answer much if its a 5/10 table or a .50/1.00 table.

To that end however I think that strategically you need to learn to adapt to different players and that is why I think that the mini micros afford a great learning opportunity if players started posting hands with reads.

Posting without reads and saying well strategy shouldn't change etc. is my biggest pet peeve about posts today more than the they are idiots raise them comments.

At least its an assumption. It's a bad assumption but its better than no reads imo.

I would love posters to consider removing the lvl they are playing at in their posts and submit them based on bb made rather than monies. I would also love hand posters to stop posting hands where they just sat down etc. Give us all the friggin info you have maybe someone has some insight you haven't thought of rather than ....yeah b/c this 4.1 its a raise etc.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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I would also love hand posters to stop posting hands where they just sat down etc.Give us all the friggin info you have maybe someone has some insight you haven't thought of rather than ....yeah b/c this 4.1 its a raise etc.

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Are you saying it's not worth posting a hand if you got no good information because you just sat down? or do you mean you'd rather not see a "I just sat down" as read in the post but any tiny bit of info even if it's just from f.e. 2 hands? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

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I would also love hand posters to stop posting hands where they just sat down etc.Give us all the friggin info you have maybe someone has some insight you haven't thought of rather than ....yeah b/c this 4.1 its a raise etc.

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Are you saying it's not worth posting a hand if you got no good information because you just sat down? or do you mean you'd rather not see a "I just sat down" as read in the post but any tiny bit of info even if it's just from f.e. 2 hands? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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This is actually a common lament. Due to a) the fact that there are so many people playing online, players are less likely to have played against players seated at the table in the past, and b) the fact that online poker is rigged and you get so many good-but-not-great ("action") hands within the first orbit after you post, there are going to be a lot of "just sat down, got XX and I'm confused" posts. Also, unfortunately, most sites are blocking datamining in one way or another, so it's not likely to go away anytime soon.

That said, the flip side is that it's important to reinforce how to play A-B-C poker for these situations.

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

to be fair 90%+ of the time when ppl say that someone 'just sat down' its actually just because they hadnt bothered to get reads and dont want to admit it =P

Re: Still Learning, How Badly Did I Butcher This?
 

I find it difficult to reinforce ABC poker and at the same time ignore the actual skillset that generates the most money for you.

Datamining 3 stats over 500 hands is going to help a little but if I had 5 statements on how a player played a hand or reacted to situations I would take those first.

Teaching ABC poker without teaching players how to read their opponents is like teaching students how to multiply with a calculator.

Remove the calculator and they may know the right answers occassionally but they will never know why they are the right answers.

In this need for speed generation, people often are so much in a rush to play that they forget half the battle is preparation. Pros prepare. Simple as that. Part of playing proper poker is preparing by prepping tables prior to putting your ass in the pocket of a seat.

I constantly dialogue with myself while I watch the table and getting ready to play.

I play very quietly to start and then open up once I understand the dynamics and flow of the table. Sometimes I am wrong and sometimes I am right.

Its important to give players a benefit of the doubt when they raise the first time but if it happens over and over again you have to question their motive.

I constantly notice guys raising my sb for instance even from MP3 or a guy who limps UTG and then donks the flop.

Or the guy who donks any paired flop. Or the guy who check/raises 3 flushes on the turn when he peels the flop.
Or the guy who limps on the button in a community pot but folds on the flop when the board has face cards. Or the guy who calls from the button and bets if it gets passed to him on the flop.

I try and find out if a particular calling station will only call if he has a piece or if he calls with over cards or if he calls with air but folds on the river.

Which guys will peel one and then fold?

Which guys donk A high boards when raised in front of them preflop.

All kinds of information can be gleaned and be a lot more effective for you by observation rather than datamining.