Umm?
 

Villain is TAGish, 18/15. I have been mixing up leading flops with air, straight draws, flush draws, two pair, sets, overpairs...not sure what to do here. Figure preflop is an okay call with my stack. He has $220 to start the hand.

I figure he would raise a decent % with air, a set, AK,KQ,AA so that is leading me to leading for like $38 and folding to a raise. I guess this is the sucky part of leading here...we can't really call a raise...I suppose we can bet 3 bet the flop committing ourselves for a calling a raise and praying he has air or will fold a lot of hands.

If I'm called I guess check/fold the river?

Anybody go for a really creative check/raise all in?

Me= $360ish Him= $220

He opens in CO, I call out of the SB with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I lead $12, he calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero?

Re: Umm?
 

give up

Re: Umm?
 

$30

Re: Umm?
 

lol, why do you insist on calling oop against decent players. Why do insist on being THAT guy when it comes to donking. By this point I'd hope you'd have realized what kinds of boards its good on. I'm glad you had a great plan for a raise on the flop by the way. Also, this turn card is awful. A lead or a c/r AI might be the two worst plays you can do. A lead is at least a little better though. He might give up his floats. Seriously though, stop trying to prove your such an amazing player when you have no plan for anything. This hand proves why your not winning at a large rate, if your winning at all.

Re: Umm?
 

lol this board is horrible for donking- your donking an extremely tight range of good hands and a very large range of bluffs. basically, your 'good' range is 55/88/MAYBE something weird like KQ and sometimes 67. i would call down all three streets with any K if i were villan and sometimes multiple streets with stuff like 88/TT/etc.

anyways, given the way you got there, check turn. you can't really rep 55 anymore, or really any 5 for that matter.

Re: Umm?
 

Agree w/ pf being horrible. I don't see why donking w/ a oesd is bad on this board unless we know CO is the type to raise light here. I mean CO has a huge range and this misses a lot of that range.
I'm not crazy about a turn barrel, but I don't think it's horrible as I think it gets 18/15 to fold lots o mid pp's. Of course the 5 didn't help our cause, but we's gots outs + FE.
But I probably agree check/folding is best now that I think about it.

Re: Umm?
 

Preflop: I'd fold pf. Suited connectors dont play well HU OOP. You won't be able to play 67s profitably OOP vs a competant player OOP.

Flop: I think its interesting that you are trying to incorporate leading flops into your game, but its just weird for me because I rarely ever do it and doing it often puts you in crappy spots.

Re: Umm?
 

Yeah, I agree that donking is a new element that I've been incorporating into my game lately, I just don't think this is the right board to do it on.

Re: Umm?
 

What does calling preflop have to do with your stack? (That's a rhetorical question.) Effective stacks are 100bbs.

Raise or fold preflop.

Re: Umm?
 

preflop is horrible and a huge leak.

im serious.

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is horrible and a huge leak.

im serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Umm?
 

A+ call preflop. I like to get myself into a lot of retarded, marginal, hard to play situations out of position all the time too! That's why I never fold or 3 bet with 76 suited out of the blinds, and always flat call a button raise from TAG regulars that are going to make me check/fold most flops I miss, and make it hard to play flops I do somewhat hit. Poker so ez when you play this good.

Re: Umm?
 

tbh I donk 0 hands in my range on this flop.

Someone tell me i'm exploitable, right, wrong, or cute (thats you fonkey).

Re: Umm?
 

fold pf
give up on turn, your range was set/67 and 55 just got a lot less likely from his POV.
maybe fire again if he floats a lot tho

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
tbh I donk 0 hands in my range on this flop.

Someone tell me i'm exploitable, right, wrong, or cute (thats you fonkey).

[/ QUOTE ]

that's not "exploitable" or anything, esp considering tags cbet thi sflop 110% of the time. it's more about preference/style etc.

Re: Umm?
 

i'd generally cc flop, once in a while make a small cr. donking isn't very believable.

i don't agree with the hate for preflop. a good player can make it work. probably not something to be doing constantly though.

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol, why do you insist on calling oop against decent players. Why do insist on being THAT guy when it comes to donking. By this point I'd hope you'd have realized what kinds of boards its good on. I'm glad you had a great plan for a raise on the flop by the way. Also, this turn card is awful. A lead or a c/r AI might be the two worst plays you can do. A lead is at least a little better though. He might give up his floats. Seriously though, stop trying to prove your such an amazing player when you have no plan for anything. This hand proves why your not winning at a large rate, if your winning at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit I can never respond fast enough to his threads, you always beat me to it.

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is horrible and a huge leak.

im serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't go that far, but I'm sure its not good.

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is horrible and a huge leak.

im serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't go that far, but I'm sure its not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say it's a HUGE leak, but it's def a leak if you do it with any regularity.

as played, c/c & c/f on read is fine imo.

Re: Umm?
 

I made up this hand and I don't know how huge of a leak it is if I just start clicking "fold" when a regular opens up.

Seriously do you all play 12/10?

Re: Umm?
 

So what you are all telling me is that when a regular raises in the CO you only flat call pocket pairs because I know for damn sure you are folding KJo, KQo,etc.

Re: Umm?
 

FGators,
I'm certainly playing paint, 98+, AT+, and ALL PPs and raising the top end of that.

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what you are all telling me is that when a regular raises in the CO you only flat call pocket pairs because I know for damn sure you are folding KJo, KQo,etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom line is that you should rarely be flat calling an open oop with 100bb. Generally speaking, folding or 3betting is almost always better.

Re: Umm?
 

rofl, I snap call KQo in the SB vs that open. And if by 12/10, you mean 28/24 then yes

Re: Umm?
 

FG, you're allowed to 3bet those hands.

Probably 50/50 between c/r and c/c on flop.

c/r to like 52 (assuming he bets 14) and call a shove (which never happens because there are 4 hands he's ever 3bet shoving here), but most likely he'll just fold. if he flats, you can shove turn because pot should be big enough and then he def will fold QQ-

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
FG, you're allowed to 3bet those hands.

Probably 50/50 between c/r and c/c on flop.

c/r to like 52 (assuming he bets 14) and call a shove (which never happens because there are 4 hands he's ever 3bet shoving here), but most likely he'll just fold. if he flats, you can shove turn because pot should be big enough and then he def will fold QQ-

[/ QUOTE ]

I rarely call here PF versus this opponent for value - profitable situations where he has a hand and you crack it simply don't occur w/ enough frequency for it to be profitable. Still, depending on villain tendencies, and assuming this is not your standard, I don't see it as being as egregious an error as some might have you believe.

On the rare occurances I do decide to switch it up and call pf, I CR here about 80% of the time with a fairly wide range. Villain will be cbetting misses here when you call oop on a board like this more than enough for you to CR any two and show a profit. This exactly the board everyone is taught to CBet on - even 18/15s.

I really dislike a lead here as it leaves you absolutely clueless and further invested on the turn.

While I see no issue with CF the turn, and I know this has been ripped already, but I'd also consider a CR. I think his range is wide enough that there are several hands you can semi-bluff out that are significantly ahead of you at this point - 8s, KT, Mid pps, etc.

Additionally, a decent portion of his range may check behind giving you a free card.

Re: Umm?
 

Are you really donking this flop with two pair or a set?

Has Villain seen you do something like this?

Re: Umm?
 

if you truly are as great as you claim at handreading, the only thing stopping you from crushing is your retarded insistence to play pots OOP. but, sure, carry on, whatever.

Re: Umm?
 

Calling a cutoff raise from the SB with 76s is a really big leak. I have been trying to tell you for about 5 months now that calling raises with suited connectors out of position is one of your biggest leaks.

Re: Umm?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I made up this hand

[/ QUOTE ]Umm... what? Are all your real hands such coolers and bad beats it makes no sense to post them so you have to make hands up for the sake of the discussion?

[ QUOTE ]
and I don't know how huge of a leak it is if I just start clicking "fold" when a regular opens up.

Seriously do you all play 12/10?

[/ QUOTE ]You've got to be trolling now.