Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

I've just started college, an obvious major turning point in my life, and have spent some time evaluating my personal beliefs. I was raised in Christan home, but had my fights with religion from youth through today. I always felt as if something was being imposed on me, and am uneasy in churches or religious areas/gatherings in general. During highschool I read a lot of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Burtrand Russell, and agreed with the vast majority of things they had to say. I've spent a great many years as a "true" agnostic, rather than using it as a stepping stone from theism to atheism.

However, I've lately been extremely concerned about the existence of Hell and the implications of my agnosticism after my death, should I end up wrong. I've actually tired to believe in Christianity/Jesus, but my prior knowledge and opposing viewpoints shoot doubt through the entirety of the religion.

I'm actually having a fairly difficult time articulating the deeper sentiments here, so I'll get to the point. I'm terrified of hell, but would likely never have any level of faith that would be required to avoid it due to my many years as an agnostic. Is this situation common?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll get to the point. I'm terrified of hell,

[/ QUOTE ]

Courage dude, it is an illusion, or you cannot do anything about it! No other possibilities! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Wikipedia tells us that "hell" is described by all these religions:

2 Religious literature & views
2.1 Bahá'í Faith
2.2 Buddhism
2.3 Chinese religions
2.4 Christianity
2.5 Deism
2.6 Greek Mythology
2.7 Hinduism
2.8 Islam
2.9 Japanese religions
2.10 Judaism
2.11 Maya faith
2.12 Norse Mythology
2.13 Taoism
2.14 Unification Church
2.15 Zoroastrianism

So even if you could force yourself to believe in this Jesus character, you'd still be 14:1 against avoiding hell, on the unlikely (silly!) assumption that these are the only options.

The fact that you are living you life in this psychologically induced terror is a very good example against the claim that "moderate" religion is beneficial - evidently its more like child abuse.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

I don't think the situation of wanting to believe but not being able to is that uncommon. I know several of the posters on this forum have been through it. I went through a period of fear of hell myself, but I was only a kid at the time. I suggest you reflect on the fact that the only reason your post isn't titled "Stuck Between Agnosticism and Islam" is your place of birth. If no amount of rational reflection fixes the problem, you might have underlying anxiety issues. There are therapists who specialise in fear of hell if it becomes a real problem. If there is a God and he is just and you live a moral life, there shouldn't be a problem anyway.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm terrified of hell, but would likely never have any level of faith that would be required to avoid it due to my many years as an agnostic. Is this situation common?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why should you be terrified of it? You'd get accustomed to it quite fast, as people can adjust to everything, then you'll start to cheat the diable, pretending that you suffer, while you relax =).

Seriously, though, you probably need to reconsider your childhood believes. Your situation is not common, I never was afraid by the perspective of the hell, more that of the perspective of the nothingness. I'd gladly exchange nothingness to the hell from any religion. And I attribute it to being raised in an atheistic family (in former Soviet Union).

As one of the posters noted, the choice is between intellectual honesty and lack of it. I would really like to believe, as it would make my life simpler. I just don't have any evidence of any superior being existence, and I can delude myself into the faith.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

First off,

Hell is what you make of it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZubVvvO914U


Second,

What utterly and totally evaporated any kind of superstition in my life was getting an understanding of the universe and of life. Once I understood how the universe has evolved and how life has evolved, then hearing religionists suggest any kind of their madness was just silly in a bizarre kind of way; it was as though they had no clue about what was going on and that their understanding of reality was extremely underdeveloped and corrupted.

Documentaries that changed my understanding of the universe and life forever are:

*David Attenborough - Life on Earth
*David Attenborough - Trials of Life
*Susan Greenfield - Brain Story

*BBC Space
*BBC The Planets
*Martin Rees - What we still don't know


The great thing about these things is that it gives you the *actual history* of us; which is ofcourse the greatest story ever told!

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

You might find it useful to simply go with the assumption that there is a God, and Christ was sacrificed for you etc. while acknowledging that there isn't as much firsthand rational evidence available to you as you would like (and which would ordinarily be enough to base belief on). If there is a God, a Christian God, then I doubt very much that He would demand you not be honest with yourself.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Why not go back and re-read Matthew Chapters 4 through 7...The basic building block of Christianity is Jesus himself...these chapters are where he tells those that want to follow him specifically what to do in their daily actions in this world...Maybe you'll see that if people read this, understood this and worked on this then there would probably be minimal or no conflict in the world...but obviously not everybody is doing this...

I like to compare what Jesus is doing here to a human cell...Here the individual's heart is the cell and Jesus is telling you what to do keep out the cancer causing free radicals from eroding your heart...

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...&version=9

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've just started college, an obvious major turning point in my life, and have spent some time evaluating my personal beliefs. I was raised in Christan home, but had my fights with religion from youth through today. I always felt as if something was being imposed on me, and am uneasy in churches or religious areas/gatherings in general. During highschool I read a lot of Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Burtrand Russell, and agreed with the vast majority of things they had to say. I've spent a great many years as a "true" agnostic, rather than using it as a stepping stone from theism to atheism.

However, I've lately been extremely concerned about the existence of Hell and the implications of my agnosticism after my death, should I end up wrong. I've actually tired to believe in Christianity/Jesus, but my prior knowledge and opposing viewpoints shoot doubt through the entirety of the religion.

I'm actually having a fairly difficult time articulating the deeper sentiments here, so I'll get to the point. I'm terrified of hell, but would likely never have any level of faith that would be required to avoid it due to my many years as an agnostic. Is this situation common?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be terrified of hell. It is a real place & people will go there someday. Are you willing to be one of those for the sake of Harris, Dawkins, or anyone else?

It does not matter how many years you spent as an unbeliever, you can & will be forgiven if you repent & turn to Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should be terrified of hell. It is a real place & people will go there someday.

[/ QUOTE ]

lololol


Ok, let's do this:


Sir,

Q1. What is hell. Please define what it is and how it works.

Q2. How do you know?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
It does not matter how many years you spent as an unbeliever, you can & will be forgiven if you repent & turn to Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.

[/ QUOTE ]

Presto-chango death-bed repentence FTW

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Q2. How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that religion remains the only mode of discourse that encourages grown men and women to pretend to know things they manifestly do not (and cannot) know.

-- Sam Harris

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Have you examined the prophecies ChrisV...seems like God knows a lot and he tells us a lot...and when someone tells you something accurately again and again then is it irrational to start to depend on their word?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you examined the prophecies ChrisV...seems like God knows a lot and he tells us a lot...and when someone tells you something accurately again and again then is it irrational to start to depend on their word?

[/ QUOTE ]


Sir,

Q3. What is a 'god'? Please define what it is and how it works.

Q4. How do you know?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Nielsio, I'm not going to define God because I think everyone in this forum already has a good idea on that.

How do I know? I know from the truth of the Gospel...in particular from the words of Jesus...most people recognize his wisdom as irrefutable upon reading his words...

God supports Jesus in history by giving us his scriptures and in those scriptures there are prophecies...Prophecies are promises from God...We can check history and see that so many of them have came when the scriptures said they would come...(One of the amazing things about the prophecies is they are given over a chain in history of around 1500 years by various prophets...many of the prophets are separated by large lapses of time...But you know a true prophet when his prophecy comes to pass...Pretty amazing when you see a chain of people over a 1500 year period in the Old Testament and actual history bears out their prophecies) My belief is this is evidence of the highest caliber....This evidence seems uniquely divine and clear and convincing enough for me on a human rational basis...

http://www.allabouttruth.org/messianic-prophecy.htm

http://www.allabouttruth.org/is-the-...e-aat-2dbd.htm

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Have you examined the prophecies ChrisV...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have, yes. Have you? I enjoyed this one:

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 24:2 the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:24 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

[ QUOTE ]
seems like God knows a lot and he tells us a lot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, no.

[ QUOTE ]
and when someone tells you something accurately again and again then is it irrational to start to depend on their word?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious what you think these accuracies are. I can show you some more inaccuracies if you like.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

ChrisV you may be taking things out of context...I hope people actually look at the full range of the prophecies...your last post didn't have any substance...Its just a really weak stumbling block when people need to do a thorough investigation...I hope no one misses out because of this minor block you are injecting here...

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Splendour,

I just read that "Messianic prophecies" link. Most of those "fulfilments" of prophecy can be answered by tacking "according to the Bible" on the end. There is no independent confirmation that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, for instance, not that Zechariah ever even prophesied that it was the Messiah who would do such a thing. Given that the Gospels were written by Christian evangelists, they have every reason to claim that various prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus. Matthew in particular is completely shameless about his fabrications, saying that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy "He shall be called a Nazarene" when no such prophecy exists in scripture. He also (deliberately?) misquotes scripture to alter its meaning on several occasions; go here and scroll down to Matthew. Since I read your link, do me the courtesy of reading mine as well. Check out the scripture it links to to verify for yourself that what it is saying is true. I think you'll be pretty surprised.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
ChrisV you may be taking things out of context...I hope people actually look at the full range of the prophecies...your last post didn't have any substance...Its just a really weak stumbling block when people need to do a thorough investigation...I hope no one misses out because of this minor block you are injecting here...

[/ QUOTE ]

How can it be a "weak stumbling block"? Jesus said he would return and the world would end in the lifetime of his followers and then it didn't happen. How much clearer a false prophecy can you get? Google for the apologist counterarguments if you like; I'm familiar with all of them and none of them are remotely satisfactory.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 26:4

Don't see anything wrong with this prophecy...Though Israel was a small country there were multiple generations and they exist til this day...

Here's another one that I fail to see a contradiction in:

In this verse God says he will write on the stone tablets, but in 34:27 he tells Moses to do the writing. 34:1

God works through men in this world...He used prophets as his mouthpiece...He used Moses as his pen...

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

I was referring just to the Matthew prophecies. I didn't propose to make you read the whole thing, though you can if you like. I agree that some of them aren't necessarily that convincing, but there are enough that are to put huge holes in the Christian claim of accurate prophecy.

I'm going to bed. If you want some more information on the particularly inaccurate Matthew, there's much more here.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm terrified of hell, but would likely never have any level of faith that would be required to avoid it due to my many years as an agnostic.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there is a god and he created a place of eternal suffering for anyone he didn't like, it seems as likely that he would choose people who denied the materialist reality set out in his work, the cosmos, as that he would condemn people who refused to believe in him based on the best evidence and rationality at their disposal.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

The problem with these prophecies is that they are very unclear.

The reasoning is very similar to the following:





<< Matthew 8:22 >>
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead."

This is the prediction about the development of garbage collector in C#.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage...ter_science%29

Just think about it, he pointed out to the method to fight with 'memory leaks', long before the invention of computers and programming languages.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Jamougha do you really think man's reasoning and God's reasoning is the same?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nielsio, I'm not going to define God because I think everyone in this forum already has a good idea on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what 'god' means. Please explain it to me.


[ QUOTE ]
How do I know? I know from the truth of the Gospel...in particular from the words of Jesus...most people recognize his wisdom as irrefutable upon reading his words...

[/ QUOTE ]

Please don't use words and concept before defining them.

Q3. What is a 'god'? Please define what it is and how it works.

Q4. How do you know?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

I believe I already answered you Nielsio...If you guys are reading Nietzsche, Kant, Foucault, Plato and the rest of the philosophical crowd I think you can define the term God for yourself...or pull down a dictionary or encyclopedic definition yourself and mull it over... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I already answered you Nielsio...If you guys are reading Nietzsche, Kant, Foucault, Plato and the rest of the philosophical crowd I think you can define the term God for yourself...or pull down a dictionary or encyclopedic definition yourself and mull it over... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, for 'god' I got 'supernatural being'.

Then I looked up 'supernatural', which gave me 'beyond what is natural'.

So that would lead to the conclusion that 'god' is defined as something not real.

Would you agree with that?


If not:

Q3. What is a 'god'? Please define what it is and how it works.

Q4. How do you know?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I already answered you Nielsio...If you guys are reading Nietzsche, Kant, Foucault, Plato and the rest of the philosophical crowd I think you can define the term God for yourself...or pull down a dictionary or encyclopedic definition yourself and mull it over... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

That's unexpected... Splendour failed to answer a direct question?!?!?! Shocker.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, I've lately been extremely concerned about the existence of Hell and the implications of my agnosticism after my death, should I end up wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take comfort that Peter666 will be up in heaven, finding meaning in your suffering (which, btw, I will be sharing with you.)

Seriously, don't worry about it. Your "soul/consciousness/spirit" will be dead before your body. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Oh I'm shocked Kurto is making allegations against me after the "ambiguous" pm he sent me...You do seem to like to ride any thread I show up in Kurto...My intent in answering this OP was to answer his question not to get in spurious arguments with everyone on this site or to answer every question raised...No one else seems to be answering every post or every question so I find it unreasonable for posters in this forum to hold me to a different and higher standard than they hold themselves... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh I'm shocked Kurto is making allegations against me after the "ambiguous" pm he sent me...You do seem to like to ride any thread I show up in Kurto...

[/ QUOTE ]

I read all the threads in this forum on a regular basis. Most of the regulars here. Only you would find that odd.

[ QUOTE ]
My intent in answering this OP was to answer his question not to get in spurious arguments with everyone on this site or to answer every question raised...No one else seems to be answering every post or every question so I find it unreasonable for posters in this forum to hold me to a different and higher standard than they hold themselves... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The point is that you regulary fail spectacularly to answer questions directed at you in most threads you participate in.

At this point, I don't know that anyone expects you to answer in a reasonable manner. But its probably fun to ask and see you deflect/evade or ignore.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

Did it ever occur to you when those allegations came up that I wasn't answering questions was when I was managing multiple posts...the reading and answering was astronomical...so I'm human ...so I missed some questions...Lots of people don't answer everything in this forum...I asked a question about Clinton the other day and everyone skipped over it...I didn't get mad...I didn't level accusations...people find different angles they want to discuss...Besides I might not have a fully articulated answer when a question was asked I may be thinking about it myself...People are never obligated to argue anyways ...A lot of people on this site aren't arguing they are posting observations, jokes, etc. I don't have to argue about everything I post because some individuals hold antagonistic viewpoints...

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, I've lately been extremely concerned about the existence of Hell and the implications of my agnosticism after my death, should I end up wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Take comfort that Peter666 will be up in heaven, finding meaning in your suffering (which, btw, I will be sharing with you.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like we'll have a blast.

Since I've been here (2p2 SMP) I've met loads of freinds for the afterlife. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

The whole argument on both sides is missing a chord, IMHO. The truth of the matter, IMO, is that it is impossible to get to the truth on either side because of an ongoing bias on both sides throughout history.

Scientific evidence, historical evidence, and theological beliefs are all subject to a much greater degree of bias and error than anyone would care to admit. The truth is further obscured in semantics, legalism, and debate.

If you are going to base your beliefs on something besides faith (and that's fine if you decide to do it), you should exhaust every resource until you are able to verify its truth.

Atheism is a every bit a religious belief as is Christianity because it lacks any proof or evidence.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Atheism is a every bit a religious belief as is Christianity because it lacks any proof or evidence.


[/ QUOTE ]

No its not. Unless you're using an alternative definition of 'religion'.

Also- you have some logical errors. One doesn't need "proof of lack of evidence" to NOT believe in something where there's no overwhelming compelling evidence to do otherwise.

If you don't believe in Invisible Unicorns, is it a "religious belief" because you don't have any evidence that invisible unicorns don't exist?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

You made some nice points Mempho...I recently was thinking about the term intellectual...and of course had to dig around in Wikipedia and I came up with this little gem which is an excerpt under the subject Intellectual:

Intellectualism:
Strictly a doctrine about the possibility of deriving knowledge from reason alone, intellectualism can stand for a general approach emphasising the importance of learning and logical thinking. As a philosophical doctrine it is usually termed Rationalism. Criticism of this attitude, sometimes summed up as Left Bank, caricatures intellectualism's faith in the mind and puts it in opposition to subjective experience, religious faith, emotion, instinct, and primitivist values in general.


Academics and public intellectuals:
In some contexts, especially journalistic speech, intellectual refers to academics, generally in the humanities, especially philosophy, who speak about various issues of social or political import. These are so-called public intellectuals — in effect communicators.

The term masks an assumption or several, in particular on academia, for example that intellectual work goes on generally in private, and there is a gap to society that requires bridging. In general practice, 'intellectual' as a label is more consistently applied to fields related to culture, the arts and social sciences than it is to working disciplines in the natural sciences, applied sciences, mathematics or engineering. Critics argue that intellectuals in these fields may remain as susceptible to indoctrination, self-deception, and propaganda as the general public because they suffer from the same human prejudices and weaknesses.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
The whole argument on both sides is missing a chord, IMHO. The truth of the matter, IMO, is that it is impossible to get to the truth on either side because of an ongoing bias on both sides throughout history.

Scientific evidence, historical evidence, and theological beliefs are all subject to a much greater degree of bias and error than anyone would care to admit. The truth is further obscured in semantics, legalism, and debate.

If you are going to base your beliefs on something besides faith (and that's fine if you decide to do it), you should exhaust every resource until you are able to verify its truth.

Atheism is a every bit a religious belief as is Christianity because it lacks any proof or evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

When in doubt, call atheism a religion! And then, no matter what we say, you can just refuse to acknowledge our definitions and go on pretending you have any clue what you are talking about! I should point out you forget to use the words "dogma" or "fundamentalist," still time to edit maybe?

Tell me what about the lack of belief in God is like a religion. Please?

If it makes you feel better, theism isn't a religion either.

Vhawk's Big Board of Things That Aren't Religions:
Atheism
Theism
Bananas
More?

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jamougha do you really think man's reasoning and God's reasoning is the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. That's rather my point. In the unlikely event that there is an intelligent being who created the universe and intends to preserve our consciousness after death in order to mete out rewards and punishments, then we should have no way of even guessing what criteria he has in mind for said rewards and punishments. He might hate people who like strawberry blancmange. There's simply nothing we can sensibly say about the topic. It's only the incredible arrogance of the religious that allows them to claim to have insight into the mind of god.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I believe I already answered you Nielsio...If you guys are reading Nietzsche, Kant, Foucault, Plato and the rest of the philosophical crowd I think you can define the term God for yourself...or pull down a dictionary or encyclopedic definition yourself and mull it over... [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, for 'god' I got 'supernatural being'.

Then I looked up 'supernatural', which gave me 'beyond what is natural'.

So that would lead to the conclusion that 'god' is defined as something not real.

Would you agree with that?


If not:

Q3. What is a 'god'? Please define what it is and how it works.

Q4. How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]


Bump for answers plz. The answer "I don't know" suffices btw.

Re: Stuck Between Agnosticism and Christianity
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Ok, for 'god' I got 'supernatural being'.

Then I looked up 'supernatural', which gave me 'beyond what is natural'.

So that would lead to the conclusion that 'god' is defined as something not real.

Would you agree with that?


If not:

Q3. What is a 'god'? Please define what it is and how it works.

Q4. How do you know?

[/ QUOTE ]


Bump for answers plz. The answer "I don't know" suffices btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's explained why he can't answer the question.

[ QUOTE ]
I was managing multiple posts...the reading and answering was astronomical...so I'm human ...so I missed some questions...Lots of people don't answer everything in this forum... (edited for brevity) Besides I might not have a fully articulated answer when a question was asked I may be thinking about it myself...People are never obligated to argue anyways ...A lot of people on this site aren't arguing they are posting observations, jokes, etc. I don't have to argue about everything I post because some individuals hold antagonistic viewpoints...


[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention he's looking up words like "intellectual" and posting them on the forum. That stuff takes time.

Its up to you to figure out what he means by God.

I suggest, since he can't answer your question, we just go with one... let's assume by God he means one of the supernatural overlord from the Discword series.

We can simplify by simply assuming one one refers to God, that we mean:
[ QUOTE ]
[edit] Bibulous
The God of Wine and Things on Sticks. He appears as a large, overly-merry man in a toga. In Tsort he is also known as Smimto, and Tuvelpit in Ephebe. He never gets a hangover (those are part of Bilious' portfolio), but he does get the unpleasant side-effects when Bilious takes a hangover cure. The effects of this link, should either ever drink time-reversed alcohol such as vul-nut wine, is undiscovered. His name literally means "one who drinks".



[/ QUOTE ]