Reasonable hourly rate?
 

What is a reasonable average hourly rate at 3/6 Limit Hold'em? The game would rotate between 4 and 9 players, mostly bad. The player whose rate we are determining, would be the best regular in the game, not wonderful, but wonderful for 3/6 limit. All hands would be played live at a B and M casino.

Thanks

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I think $6-$9 is considered reasonable. The rake is huge at that limit, though, and takes its toll.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is a reasonable average hourly rate at 3/6 Limit Hold'em? The game would rotate between 4 and 9 players, mostly bad. The player whose rate we are determining, would be the best regular in the game, not wonderful, but wonderful for 3/6 limit. All hands would be played live at a B and M casino.

[/ QUOTE ]
In Poker Essays, Mason says $4/hr for an OK player, $8 for a good player, and $12 for a great player. This edition was put out in 2004.

-Tom

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

It may be wishful thinking on my part but I think we can get it a little higher, maybe $15-18, if you can play when the tables are the weakest.

I work 3rd shift so I go late Friday nights and can play well into the morning and still be pretty fresh. This way I can take advantage of the drunks and other loose crazy people that show up to give their money away.

If you are talking playing everyday then I guess that may be a different story.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I kind of have to agree with Yepitis on this one. I think that $15-18 is entirely do-able, depending on the table situation. It really depends on the competition. I've been pulling approximately this rate for the past few months, but I have to admit that my competition is exceptionally weak, being very loose, passive, and predictable (yummy).

I can't really compare, because I wasn't playing before the "poker boom," but I think a lot more weak and inexperienced players are coming to the card rooms now, which make the games so much softer than before. This means that unusually high hourly rates are now possible at these low limits.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I think as stated before that $15-$18 is certainly possible but that $12 is definitly realistic for a decent player. I play at those limits in B&M and it's typical to sit at a full table with only 1 or 2 other good players and 7 or 8 horrible ones so a disciplined player can get paid off on huge hands every time. You don't even have to worry about your tight image because no one is paying attention.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I think things are a little better then they were in 2004 plus the small stakes book came out after that essay I would think, I play 1/2 live and wouldn't put myself down to think I could make 20d an hour if they had it. But a few months of tests won't do, you can make all the money minus the rake if you are the best player but just being the better there may not end up at 18d an hr. No as the topic starter posted he was only so good; the game giving him that much isn't probable; in the game I play no one comes out a winner but me and the room even the jackpot winners lose it all back and these aren't the cartoon variety give aways that you might conjure up. I have seen a player make a huge stack catching draw after draw then bet it all away! So unless I am very on top of that table I wouldn't count on ten dollars.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I find it noteworthy that no one is posting their own stats. I have 800 hrs. in low limit games ranging from 2/4-8/16 + some 3/6 full kill O/8, etc. I'm earning the princely sum of $1.65/hr. This figure is net of all rakes and tips.

I think it is easy to:

1) Overrate your skill set (rookie!),
2) Underrate the impact of variance, both good and bad.

Amoung the games I play, my best BB/hr. rate is 2.9. My worst is -0.1. These rates have seen substantial variance over the year. I'm in my 3rd year LLHE play, but am new to O/8, NL and SNG's which are part of these totals.

I challenge others to answer this question by posting their actual recorded results. Answers that say this book says this or that do not count. Answers that say I think I've done this or that do not count. Do you keep accurate score?

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

Well, I'm a loser at 3/6
I am a winner at 20/40
Both limits have many hands played by me. You can draw your conclusions.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I don't really play 3/6 anymore unless I'm waiting for a bigger game, but here are my numbers since March of last year when I started playing at b&m's in L.A.--

102 sessions
297.7 hours
1793 net profit
1.00 bb/hour
141 in expenses (valet, non-dealer tips, food)

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]

102 sessions
297.7 hours
Isn't that an average of 3 hours per session? Any reason for this?
1793 net profit
1.00 bb/hour
141 in expenses (valet, non-dealer tips, food)

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I find it noteworthy that no one is posting their own stats. I have 800 hrs. in low limit games ranging from 2/4-8/16 + some 3/6 full kill O/8, etc. I'm earning the princely sum of $1.65/hr. This figure is net of all rakes and tips.

I think it is easy to:

1) Overrate your skill set (rookie!),

2) Underrate the impact of variance, both good and bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

I've just passed the 850 hour mark of B&M 2/4 and I'm killing the game to the tune of $1.80/hour (i.e. 0.45 BB/hour). I'm exactly 50/50 in sessions won vs sessions lost.

IMHO, I think people greatly overestimate the advantage they have over poor players at the table. For any particular play, an opponent only has one of three options (fold, check/call or raise) and in a lot of instances even bad players can make the correct decision the majority of the time. A blind monkey could probably make the correct decision a fair percentage of the time, and the time he doesn't he could get lucky a fair percentage of that time. Overall these accumulations of small mistakes will cause them to be long term losers (enabling you to become a long term winner) but it ain't the gravy train people make it out to be.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

Yeah, I started out playing longer sessions but now I'll sit for less than an hour when waiting for 4/8, 6/12, etc. My last 24 "sessions" are less than an hour, many are like .1 or .2 hrs

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

My last 115 hours of 6/12 play I am making $9.80 per hour. Before that I didn't keep hourly statistics because I wasn't really very serious about it.

At 3/6 I'm confident I would be about a break even player, as the rake is exactly the same in both games. $5 a hand (3 in drop, 1 in tip, 1 in jackpot collection) is just vicious in 3/6.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

Three hour sessions, takes me that long to get to my card room and back.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

You guys are winning my money since I lose $6/hr playing 3/6. This is over 4 years of trying to beat the game. It was -$10 for the first two years so I am improving. LOL

I can not beat the $5 drop per hand won.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are winning my money since I lose $6/hr playing 3/6. This is over 4 years of trying to beat the game. It was -$10 for the first two years so I am improving. LOL

I can not beat the $5 drop per hand won.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should move up to 6/12. I'm dead serious; you'll probably break even.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

Over a lot of hours I'm beating 3/6 for less than .5 bets per hour and 20/40 for twice as much.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I can not beat the $5 drop per hand won.

[/ QUOTE ]

to put things in perspective, rake at 10/20 at the borg is $5 per 1/2 hr, or 1 SB /hr.

i think you're gettin raped and should move up

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

Sorry - I'm an online player so B&M is a different story!

In the OLD days when tables were bad (I'm talking 45% flops) I was a 2BB/hour player. This is over a million hands.

Heck - Crypto used to have 3/6 50% games all the time and even last year I could play 5/10 60% flops for a hour at some Euro sites.

Once things got tighter and PARTICULARLY since they closed down Euro sites for Americans I find it hard to get over 1.5BB/hour.

So if you are talking bad players you could do 2BB/hour - HOWEVER(2) - it depends how many hands you are playing - can I assume you are talking LIVE games??

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I spent the better part of two years playing $2/$4 at my local cardroom with $4 total rake/jackpot before moving up to $4/$8 and $10/$20. Since we're talking about low limit I checked my statking databases. The first listing is before I corrected a major leak in my game. YES, discipline was an issue, but this correction fixed this problem. The second database is after implementing the rule AND sticking with it. Yes, I've had bad runs during the second database, but dealt with them with my head high and stayed with my "A" game.

1st Database: 915.15 hours @ $1.74/hour (10% $3 max rake with no jackpot drop)

2nd Database: 281.87 hours @ $4.07/hour (10% $3 max rake with $1 jackpot drop)

Low limit games are beatable at a reasonable rate.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

Fishyak had challenged us to post our stats, but unfortunately at the time, I had only a few hours under my belt when I had started keeping track of my progress.

It's been a few months, and I have a few more hours logged now, and so I'd like to post my results.

Below is a chart of my progress at $3/6 and $4/8 games:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...noWinnings.jpg

207 hours and 40 minutes of play, and I have won $3644 during that time (includes deductions from buying food and tipping), so that's about $17.55/hr. At $3/6, my rate is $12.48/hr at 89 hours and 50 minutes of play, and at $4/8, my rate is $20.01/hr at 117 hours and 50 minutes of play.

I know it looks really suspicious that my progress so closely follows a straight line, but I think I've just been really lucky in that regard. Looking back on it, I realize now that I could have had a lot wilder up and down ride had a few nights and a few big pots gone the other way.

But I do think big returns are certainly possible at these low stakes. You just need to be very disciplined and very observant. And playing against horrible players certainly doesn't hurt either. The reason I don't think a lot of people have a lot of hours logged at these low limits is because anyone who can earn 2+BB/hr probably has aspirations of playing much higher than $3/6 and $4/8. In fact, I'm getting ready to take a stab at $8/16 and $10/20 games myself, and if I do well there, I doubt I'll ever play the lower games again.

But besides being disciplined and employing sound strategy, I think that knowing your opponents can be extremely profitable and really contributed to my high win rates.

Some players will never check raise and only bet strong hands. Some players only raise pre-flop with pocket pairs. Some players will never fold two pair or better no matter how scary the board is. Some players will never fold to a double raise on the flop if they initially bet, even when it's painfully obvious that they are nearly drawing dead. Some players only raise with the nuts or the near nuts.

You gain the most by recognizing and exploiting these weak tendencies, which is a strategy that I use at these games. It has served me well so far. Don't just develop a cookie cutter strategy that generates a modest profit against a generic $3/6 or $4/8 player. You're really missing out on a lot of profit. I see no reason why other skilled players shouldn't be able to do as well as I have at these levels.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

4bb is the norm for an average player.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

Mason Malmuth in Poker Essays wrote:
3/6
OK: $4
Good: $8
Great: $12
4/8
OK: $5
Good: $10
Great: $14

I don't now if these hold true anymore.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

We're talking about only live, right? I don't think those are accurate anymore.

4 BB seems high to me. I can see a great player doing 3, but four is a little much.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mason Malmuth in Poker Essays wrote:
3/6
OK: $4
Good: $8
Great: $12
4/8
OK: $5
Good: $10
Great: $14

I don't now if these hold true anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really doubt it's possible to make 2bb/hour at 3/6 in our heavily raked modern games. If you are playing against very very bad players (typical for 3/6) that ALSO act fast on their hands, then it becomes more feasible though.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

I assume he means live. It's 2 big bets for great players not 4 (4 big blinds I guess). I'm pretty sure this essay is a few years old.

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really play 3/6 anymore unless I'm waiting for a bigger game, but here are my numbers since March of last year when I started playing at b&m's in L.A.--

102 sessions
297.7 hours
1793 net profit
1.00 bb/hour
141 in expenses (valet, non-dealer tips, food)

[/ QUOTE ]


1 BB/ hour is very realistic, considering the high LA rake.

Those who claim you can sustain 15 to 18 an hour at 3/6 are out of their minds. That's over 2 BB/ hr.

In 3/6 at LA rake levels, 2BB an hour is considered the ceiling for the best pros.

Sure, you might run hot and exceed 2BB an hour at that game for a stretch of 100 hours or more. But sooner or later variance will rear its ugly head.


AB

Re: Reasonable hourly rate?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

102 sessions
297.7 hours
Isn't that an average of 3 hours per session? Any reason for this?
1793 net profit
1.00 bb/hour
141 in expenses (valet, non-dealer tips, food)

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]


I keep my sessions short too. If I'm playing full time (like now, thanks to the [censored] writers strike) I break my session into several "sessionetts" of 2-4 hours each, at different games or different casinos.

While alot of people talk about it all being "one long session" day in and day out, the reality is that people do adjust to your play, and play differently against you once you have several buy ins in front of you. I usually leave after I'm up 2 buy ins or so (sometimes as many as 4), and start again somewhere else. I will also leave if I got hit with bad variance, have played over 4 hours, and have grinded myself back to nearly even.



AB