50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($32.60)
SB ($8.75)
BB ($50)
Hero ($63.10)
MP ($80.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, MP calls $2, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>.

Flop: ($4.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $8</font>, Hero calls $5.

Turn: ($20.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $13.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $30</font>

MP is 23/15/3

I felt that folding to the raise on flop is too weak, and raising folds weaker hands and keeps stronger. MP can have AJ, QJ, JT, set, or like 88-TT and not believe I have a J. I get played back on flops decent amount, not all the time, but sometimes.

I guess I would play any (maybe not Q,T?) turn the same.

What's your line, how does it differ based on the opponent (LP, LAG, TAG)?

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

usually if i get raised on the flop, and i think that i'm still ahead, but my hand isn't good enough to just move in with, i call and lead the turn, assuming fairly deep stacks. then, the opponents turn action is usually pretty genuine.

i hate calling flop raises and then checking the turn oop with hands like these. i almost never do it. 90% of the time, you'll be facing a bet on the turn, but you won't really know what it means. if you call or move in, its no cheaper than leading the turn, and you'll still get called leading the turn more often than raising the flop for some reason.

maybe that's faulty reasoning on my part, but it keeps me out of trouble sometimes.

disclaimer: usually when i do this i have a little bit stronger hand that what you've got here.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I'd much rather just call the turn bet and then put out a blocker on the river. I think c/r this turn essentially turns your hand into a bluff.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I like it until the turn. The turn I wouldn't check-raise, he will probably fold all hands you beat, maybe also AJ.
Here it's close to fold or call his bet. I would Call and pbb C/F the river unless you catch a J or a K.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

zomg fold PF!

also agree with c/r turn being a bluff. but really, this is such spew...such a mediocre hand OOP. you raised UTG, for villain to RR you, more often than not you are well behind.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
zomg fold PF!

[/ QUOTE ]

6 handed I raise KQs UTG, KJs MP, KJo CO. Here it's 5 handed, it's a bit borderline UTG, but I choose to open up a bit.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I fold flop. We are OOP vrs. good player. Why fight for marginal EV with lots of varience?

If you insist on not folding flop, hrm, I think 3betting flop is better than the line you took. If you make it 24, and he shoves, you can still fold.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I probably fold on the flop without a read that villain sucks. This is a pretty dry board. Its not like he's raising here with QJ.

Once he bombs the turn you can be pretty sure you don't have the best hand.

PF who cares, it really doesn't matter.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I read the "Professional No-Limit Hold'em" lately and I guess it's commitment threshold concept affects my thinking quite a bit. From that perspective, leading turn or check-calling turn with the intention of possibly folding later in the hand is a bad play. Once you get that much (over one third) of your stack in, you should not be folding often.

Using that line of thought I see myself having two options on the flop: either fold to the raise, or plan to checkraise any non T/Q turn, committing myself.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

Another thing to consider, with the line you took, is that we can probably eliminate draws from his range after he doesn't check behind turn.

Quite often, you'll see players with his stats (and you should be doing this too) raise this flop with like 89 or 99 or some crap like that, to try and take it down right there. However, after called, you usually check behind on turn with those hands - it's part of the whole reason for raising flop, you are getting to see 2 cards for the price of that raise (usually), as well as disguise your hand, because if you hit on river, opponent will still probably bet into you after you checked turn.

However, since he didn't check behind turn, I say we can eliminate these kind of hands from his range, except maybe like A7 or something. So what do you beat that he's raising flop with, that's not a draw?

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you beat that he's raising flop with, that's not a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

White below:

<font color="white">No idea, he did fold though :P Maybe QJ, 88-TT?

I am on a dowswing and it feels like every villain is playing totally randomly against me. I find it very difficult at the moment to "trust" opponents to play logically, and for that reason I end up making stupid calldowns etc.

Also, I guess I did not have as many hands against the villain at that time, so his stats might have looked more donkish.
</font>

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

you're not committed to anything when you know you're beat. if a guy raises you twice consecutively when you have tp3k, you're beat. its an important concept, but if a hand unfolds in such a way that you have a really good idea of what your opponent has, you can bend the rules quite a lot when it comes to committment.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I dont like this at all on the turn, I prefer to lead. The check raise is so suspect. What are you raising with UTG that makes villian fold. I still think that in most cases any hand that will raise you on the flop is going to call you here.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I would recommend folding to the flop raise. TP2K is not a hand that is worth building a pot with OOP. The turn and the river are just going to be so difficult to play, it isn't worth it.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you're not committed to anything when you know you're beat. if a guy raises you twice consecutively when you have tp3k, you're beat. its an important concept, but if a hand unfolds in such a way that you have a really good idea of what your opponent has, you can bend the rules quite a lot when it comes to committment.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is effectively the same as saying "do as you feel like, when the book agrees with you, use it as a rationale, when it doesn't, just say it does not apply to this case". Which is the same as that the book is worthless.

I mean the concepts are either correct or they are not.

I know I've personally had a hard time digesting the teachings of PNL1 and I am not sure if I fully agree with it or not.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

if a guy shows you his cards, and they're better than yours, are you going to call him on the river because you're committed? those stack to pot ratios are just a guideline to use. as there is less money behind, the odds you're being laid on bets get closer and closer to actual odds, since you can't keep losing more and more money. most bets offer favorable odds, so once you approach a certain point in a hand, you have to have a pretty good idea that you're behind to lay it down for those favorable odds. sometimes you will have a pretty good idea, so you can go ahead and lay it down anyway.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]


This is effectively the same as saying "do as you feel like, when the book agrees with you, use it as a rationale, when it doesn't, just say it does not apply to this case". Which is the same as that the book is worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

jimpo,

is your issue that you don't like that commitment decisions can change? or that we say you should adapt to new information? or that deciding whether you're committed (and under what circumstances) isn't helpful? honest question, i'd like to address this if i can.

matt

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


This is effectively the same as saying "do as you feel like, when the book agrees with you, use it as a rationale, when it doesn't, just say it does not apply to this case". Which is the same as that the book is worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

jimpo,

is your issue that you don't like that commitment decisions can change? or that we say you should adapt to new information? or that deciding whether you're committed (and under what circumstances) isn't helpful? honest question, i'd like to address this if i can.

matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't necessarily have a problem with the book right here (although I have indeed had hard time wrapping my brain around the book's concepts). I think my problem is more with people telling "the book is great, but you don't have to do as it teaches, just bend the rules". I either want to follow the concepts or not, otherwise it's just one more confusing aspect to think about with no real help.

Here I see flop as a "commitment threshold" decision based on the pot-stack ratios, isn't that correct? Either I am too behind his range and fold, or I think QJ, 88-TT, 89, occasional bluff are big enough part of his range to commit profitably.

I don't think turn gives me any critical information to change my commitment plan. My flop play is quite weak, and people do play turn like that with QJ, 88-TT, 89, bluff. They don't always take a free card, I know I don't. Which was also proven by his fold.

Thanks for taking the time to answer this, I was surprised to see you notice my mention of the book [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[x] OP hates money

fold preflop
fold flop
fold turn (I don't think he will bet there after you called his raise OOP on the flop, if he has a draw or a weaker J. If he has a draw (9T, 56) he will check the turn to take a free card. This guy surely has you beat on the turn!)

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I just wanted to say OP does not hate money if he r pf.

You must be able to play in these kind of pos. if you are going to be doing that though.

Your cbet might have looked weak to a big stack inviting a r.

Im not a big fan of the raise on the turn though I like c/c better against this villain and yes on the river also.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

cbet should be $3.2+

make it $19 to go on the flop

fold to AI

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

lol at folding preflop its [censored] 5 handed

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would recommend folding to the flop raise. TP2K is not a hand that is worth building a pot with OOP. The turn and the river are just going to be so difficult to play, it isn't worth it.

[/ QUOTE ]

at this level, i'd have to agree with this post. if you're going to play back, call and lead the turn, or 3 bet on the flop. if you get raised i'd be folding it instantly.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

People who suggest calling the flop and leading the turn, as opposed to 3-betting the flop, can you explain your rationale? What's the purpose of this? Why do you want to see the turn? I'm totally lost here.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

you opponent could have made a raise in position to win the pot outright. he could have held something like TT. calling the flop and leading the turn shows some strength.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

You don't think 3-bet will make him fold if he was on a pure steal?

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

if he was holding TT, i feel like a turn bet might be more effective.

by betting the turn your firing 2 bullets and not building such a large pot early in the hand.

thats my opinion, so i'm curious to see what others say. i think both plays are effective, but i'd lead the turn.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

Why would a 3-bet on the flop build a pot any bigger than a turn bet?

I just don't get that line at all, and I've seen suggestions like that in other hand discussions as well.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol at folding preflop its [censored] 5 handed

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, and it's soooooted for crying out loud. I'm raising that [censored] any day and all day.

Post-flop discussion is too advanced for me. Maybe I have to buy that book...

-Ted

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]

-Ted

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm...ootko Ted pokeritiedosta?

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

I'm not a fan of the CR on the turn. If I call flop, then I"d probably cc turn and cf river.

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

-Ted

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm...ootko Ted pokeritiedosta?

[/ QUOTE ]

Joo, huomasin sun viestin täällä ja päätin tulla hölmöilemään vaikka ei ollu mitään fiksua sanottavaa. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

For our foreign friends: Sorry for little off-topic. Please continue

Re: 50NL KJs TPGK line?
 

does anyone like an occasional check on the flop?