$200R AJ vs Colson
 

I think Colson views me as spewy. I stacked off with middle pair in a limped pot vs him earlier in the 100r. Also this hand happened just a few hands before the feature one.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t500/t1000
(Ante: t100)
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t33354
UTG+1: t16620
MP1: t17413
MP2: t41346
CO: t14337
Button: t14035
SB: t64556
djk123: t27984

Pre-flop: (8 players) djk123 is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises to t2600</font>, 3 folds, djk123 calls t1600 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t4900)</font>.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t6500, 2 players)
djk123 checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t6500, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">djk123 bets t4000</font>, MP2 calls t4000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t10500)</font>.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t14500, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">djk123 bets t11000</font>, MP2 folds.
Uncalled bets: t11000 returned to djk123.

Results:
Final pot: t14500

Here's the actual hand

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t500/t1000
(Ante: t100)
8 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t23515
UTG+1: t31154
MP1: t16720
MP2: t15213
CO: t45139
Button: t12835
SB: t71700
djk123: t36984

Pre-flop: (8 players) djk123 is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to t2600</font>, 2 folds, djk123 calls t1600 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t4900)</font>.

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t6500, 2 players)
djk123 checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets t4000</font>, djk123 calls t4000 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t10500)</font>.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t14500, 2 players)
djk123 checks, <font color="#cc0000">CO bets t10000</font>, djk123

Stacks seem awkward to 3 bet preflop since I wouldn't feel comfortable calling a shove. What about flop? Folding just seemed really weak. Turn?

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

Preflop, I would general 3-bet and call a push.

On the flop, you don't have much, so I would probably fold, but I like a checkraise better than a call.

On the turn, I probably fold, but checkraise allin if you are brave.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

I 3bet or fold AJ in spots like this - fwiw i think you play way too much OOP... in this is a perfect example

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop, I would general 3-bet and call a push.

On the flop, you don't have much, so I would probably fold, but I like a checkraise better than a call.

On the turn, I probably fold, but checkraise allin if you are brave.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with DJK in the sense that the stacks are awkward for 3bet/call

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

flop is really bad
easy turn lead.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

Colson is better then all of us combined fold PF he will own your soul.

I don't mind 3bet calling here vs him esp if you've been yourself lately as you always are. When you make it 8500 he thinks he can make you fold enough to 4bet a decent part of his range.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

Preflop call is good.

Flop, just release most of the time and move on, although mixing in a c/raise every once and awhile is good. Hate the call though. As played, bet turn.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

Def 3-bet/call pre.

Just fold the flop.

Post the hand where you stacked off with middle pair in a limped pot.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

djk,
If he thinks you are spewy he excepts you to shove random high diamonds and stuff. Fold flop and turn. Preflop is fine, fold pre is really bad imo.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
Def 3-bet/call pre.

Just fold the flop.

Post the hand where you stacked off with middle pair in a limped pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t100/t200
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t5075
UTG+1: t7128
MP1: t7190
MP2: t8225
MP3: t9276
djk123: t6917
Button: t6124
SB: t7868
BB: t14167

Pre-flop: (9 players) djk123 is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t200 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t300)</font>, MP1 calls t200 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t500)</font>, 2 folds, djk123 calls t200 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t700)</font>, Button folds, SB calls t100 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t900)</font>, BB checks.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t1000, 5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">djk123 bets t600</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to t2400</font>, 3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">djk123 raises all-in t6717</font>, SB calls t4317 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t10117)</font>.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (t14434, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t14434)


River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t14434, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: t14434)


Results:
Final pot: t14434


I thought his raise size didn't make sense for anything but a draw. Oops.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

3b pf

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

looking back on the hand, it does seem like a 3bet/call. For some reason i thought he was earlier than cutoff.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

What the hell? Why do people think preflop is a 3bet/call shove? Do you really think you're putting in 36 bb's preflop good against Carl here? Maybe against Randal because he owns your soul but not Carl.

I call here with 100% of the hands I'm playing here. You're quite deep and it makes playing more hands profitable when your range is so wide.

That said, check/fold the flop.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell? Why do people think preflop is a 3bet/call shove? Do you really think you're putting in 36 bb's preflop good against Carl here? Maybe against Randal because he owns your soul but not Carl.

I call here with 100% of the hands I'm playing here. You're quite deep and it makes playing more hands profitable when your range is so wide.

That said, check/fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reraising is a semibluff, so it doesn't matter if you are usually ahead when you get allin.

As played, I think you could checkraise representing a pp as well as fold on the flop.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

This hand is played pretty weirdly. Calling preflop is fine and is the standard here since you're in a [censored] spot if he 4-bets (have a plan!) On the flop just check/fold! WTF is with the FPS?

As played the turn is an excellent card to lead at. Why else are you floating OOP with a hand like this?

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

i dunno i thought he might give up on turn

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

I've never played with Colson. What is his 4betting range in this spot? I would flat call w/AJ, but 3bet/call w/AQ.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

your M = 36984/2400 = ~15.5

his M (after he bets) = (45139-2600)/2400 = ~17.75

pot = 5000 = ~2 Ms

3-bet = 3-4 Ms

if he 4-bet min-raises and you call that's 6-8 Ms, leaving you 9.5-11.5 Ms

stop-and-go is better : call and bet flop no matter what

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
your M = 36984/2400 = ~15.5

his M (after he bets) = (45139-2600)/2400 = ~17.75

pot = 5000 = ~2 Ms

3-bet = 3-4 Ms

if he 4-bet min-raises and you call that's 6-8 Ms, leaving you 9.5-11.5 Ms

better to call and bet flop no matter what

[/ QUOTE ]

My ñ was 23 so that's clearly false.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
your M = 36984/2400 = ~15.5

his M (after he bets) = (45139-2600)/2400 = ~17.75

pot = 5000 = ~2 Ms

3-bet = 3-4 Ms

if he 4-bet min-raises and you call that's 6-8 Ms, leaving you 9.5-11.5 Ms

stop-and-go is better : call and bet flop no matter what

[/ QUOTE ]

What is his 4betting range? And would he min raise?

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
your M = 36984/2400 = ~15.5

his M (after he bets) = (45139-2600)/2400 = ~17.75

pot = 5000 = ~2 Ms

3-bet = 3-4 Ms

if he 4-bet min-raises and you call that's 6-8 Ms, leaving you 9.5-11.5 Ms

stop-and-go is better : call and bet flop no matter what

[/ QUOTE ]

What is his 4betting range? And would he min raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know either of these players. Not sure what villain's 4-bet range is or whether he'd more than min raise (I just put min-raise b/c it's best case for hero and it's still lame).

If villain is lag his steal raise is wide enough that pps are maybe 25% of it, so he has nothing on flop 50% of the time, and maybe 60% of that he's only on 2nd pair or worse. Stop-n-go with 1/2-2/3 pot bet on flop no matter what tends towards max reward/risk.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

Straight out reraising allin is significantly cEV+. There is 4900 in the pot, and you pick it up most of the time. There also isn't much difference between 3-bet/calling and reraising allin.

Flat calling is also cEV+, but it depends on how well you play this hand OOP. Since villain is a strong player, I like 3-bet/calling a little better than flat calling.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
Straight out reraising allin is significantly cEV+. There is 4900 in the pot, and you pick it up most of the time. There also isn't much difference between 3-bet/calling and reraising allin.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is probably true

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

I think 3betting &gt; shove as he will 4bet light sometimes esp with your image.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

DJK watch out incase he min 4 bets you

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
Straight out reraising allin is significantly cEV+. There is 4900 in the pot, and you pick it up most of the time. There also isn't much difference between 3-bet/calling and reraising allin.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's enough difference between 3-bet/calling and re-raising allin to make the latter clearly better.

But is it $EV to risk 17.5M to gain 2.1M = 12% ?

Someone said villain is extremely good player. Is villain really calling allin with worse than AQ ? If not, then doesn't AJo allin logic imply a very wide range for allin in this spot ? Would you do it with AT ? KQ ? KJ ? QJ ?

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

you guys are crazy. 3-betting w/ the intention of calling a 4-bet this deep has to be bad. or maybe i am

calling is fine. c/f flop

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

I ran the numbers, your equity when called is about 25% and he's calling about 1/5 times. That makes it really damn close for shoving preflop but I see no reason to do it when calling is clearly +EV.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

I like calling and check folding this flop.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

Would you guys say it is a good spot to re-raise as a steal in DJK's position?

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

Not really because it'd be sacrificing EV that he can be taking by just calling. Wait for trash that you can't play +EV in any other way other than reraising.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

regarding 3 betting preflop:

i felt AJ was on the borderline. AQ i was def 3 betting/calling for value and AT i was def calling. i thought colson was on the tighter side (is this accurate?) so elected to call.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not really because it'd be sacrificing EV that he can be taking by just calling. Wait for trash that you can't play +EV in any other way other than reraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think dan is asking if 3betting close to atc is +EV here. you guys are on the same page.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

I meant repopping with total air.

If no, why not?

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
I ran the numbers, your equity when called is about 25% and he's calling about 1/5 times. That makes it really damn close for shoving preflop but I see no reason to do it when calling is clearly +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]
I assume you are talking about reraising allin preflop, which is similar to, but easier to calculate than, 3-bet/calling. AJo is 25% against JJ+,AK. Do you really think his range is that tight? Also, that is 3% of his hands, and I think he raises more than 15% of his hands.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

if i shoved, i'd say colson is calling 88+,AQ+ and maybe 77 and AJs

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
if i shoved, i'd say colson is calling 88+,AQ+ and maybe 77 and AJs

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh, and you are 31% against 88+,AQ+. That is 5.6% of his hands. If he is raising 20% of his hands from CO, then he calls 20% of the time.

You gain 4900 if he folds. If he calls, there is 75300 in the pot. Your expected loss in 12500 compared to folding. So your overall expected win is 1400 by pushing.

If you 3-bet/call, Colson may push some weaker hands thinking he has FE and he may flat call. I think 3-bet/calling is about equal to overbet pushing with AJo. If you had a big hand or were making a playing, a standard 3-bet is better than a push.

Now people are saying flat calling is more cEV+ than reraising, but they say fold this flop. If you check/fold any flop without an ace or jack or KQT, I don't think flat calling is very EV+. Plus sometimes you are dominated with top pair. Given villain is a strong player, it seems like a reraise is the better play.

It seems to me that if you are going to flat call, this is a pretty good flop to checkraise or lead out/fold with, representing a pp or middle cards.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

hes betting all the scary turn cards after you c/c flop because he probably knows you arent c/cing any combo draws

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

[ QUOTE ]
hes betting all the scary turn cards after you c/c flop because he probably knows you arent c/cing any combo draws

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeh, as played I kind of like a checkraise allin on the turn. Good chance you have 5-13 outs if you are not ahead. I think if he has an overpair here he often checks behind.

Re: $200R AJ vs Colson
 

this thread is funny, just thought i'd say hi.

hi!

!