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-   -   (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=518019)

ChicagoRy 10-08-2007 02:06 AM

(NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Sorry for the delay, I went through like a half dozen edits in this article and about as many downswings during the last week or two. I also had a 25-50 level-only video but camtasia froze when saving/rendering it, so there went a 15 minute section of the video. If I get around to finishing a 25-50 video that I am happy with I'll post it in this thread. I've attached a video I made a few weeks/month back that I found as a temporary replacement.

As for the article, it's fairly basic but I was writing it as a free preview article for my website (aimed at newer players). So for anybody that thinks it's too basic, sorry.

If you have any questions about the article or any questions in general, feel free to ask me, I'll answer anything within reason (as this is my poo bah post).

I'd like to thank a few people for helping me get to where I am at this point in poker: Waidzu, TheOpenDoor, Hokiegreg, Dboy, Cwar and Omgwtfnoway. Countless others have helped me improve my game, I'd like to thank you guys as well.

Key terms to know

HUSNG = Heads Up Sit N Go

BB = Big Blind

SB = Small Blind

OOP = Out of Position

3-bet = A reraise or raising when a player raises your bet.

Effective Stacks = The stack size of the player with the least amount of chips, or the maximum amount of chips either player can win if they both are all in.

Two barrel = Betting the flop and then the turn.

Implied Odds = The ratio of your total expected win when your card hits to the present cost of calling a bet (TOP P. 55)

NOTE: This article is written for the structure of Pokerstars HUSNG Turbo Speed games. For other game structures some of what is written may not apply or may be wrong. For any questions about this you can email or private message me.

A Guide to the 25-50 Blind Level Part 1: Basic Play

By Ryan

This is the first of a four part series on how to play in the 25-50 level of Heads Up Sit N’ Gos. In the first article you will learn some of the differences that separate the 25-50 level from the earlier blind levels.

For clarity’s sake, these articles will mainly apply to situations you face in the 25-50 level, regardless of the stack sizes in other levels of play.

For example, there is one key difference between being 25bb deep in the 25-50 level and being 25bb deep in the 10-20 level: How your opponent is going to play. Most opponents are going to play very differently in these two cases even though they should play nearly identical in both. For this main reason I want to focus on situations that come up in the 25-50 level.

When identifying the basic differences between this level and previous levels, you will notice the effective stack sizes are generally 15-30 big blinds at the start of the 25-50 level. At the earlier levels you are usually deeper stacked and have more room to “maneuver” with bets and raises. At the 50-100 level most of your play is going to be shove or fold preflop with a little bit of exception. But in the 25-50 level of play you’re often stuck in between. This often puts additional pressure on players and makes a lot of decisions unclear in their mind.

Another thing you should realize is that a mistake in this level is very costly. In the earlier levels of play you can make a mistake or two and lose 10-15% of your stack in doing so. In the 25-50 level you’ll regularly see players lose 25-50% or more of their chips on one bad play here. Fortunately, if you pay attention to these articles and work hard to improve your game, your opponents will be making many more costly errors than you.

Let’s take a look at preflop raising. A common mistake players make is committing too many chips into the pot preflop. As the blinds go up and the ratio to your stack sizes goes down, position starts to matter less. Common raise sizing when 20-30bb deep should be 2-2.5x the big blind, or 100-125 chips in this level. Under special circumstances a 3x raise may apply, but this is rare and unnecessary to go over in this article.

You will notice many players raising to 150-200 chips during this level with stack sizes of any amount. We will learn why this is usually bad and how to exploit it in the third article.

Now that you’ve got a handle on preflop raise sizes, we can talk about the difference in preflop hand values. In the 25-50 level a lot of hands that were valuable to raise in previous levels will go down in value. Hands like suited connectors (56s, 78s) go down in value as the stack to blind ratio goes down. These are speculative hands and the main advantage of these speculative hands is the implied odds that you have with them. Your implied odds go down as the blind-stack ratio becomes smaller, meaning hands that make top pair are going to be going up in value while lower-card hands that need to make flushes, straights and two pair hands are going to go down in value.

So does this mean you should fold hands like 67s on the button when effective stacks are 20-25bb? Not necessarily. You have to be careful on overplaying them and committing too many chips to the pot in certain situations. We’ll get into when you should minraise, limp and fold this type of hand in the next article.

We’ve covered some of the preflop differences in this level, so let’s get into some postflop play.

In one word, you postflop play in the 25-50 level should be “aggressive.”

As a whole, you want to be stabbing out at a lot of pots against most players in this level. Players generally respond to aggression by being very over aggressive in this level or by playing very weak. You should be able to identify which kind of player you are playing very early on in this level. Article 2 will go into greater detail about how to adjust accordingly to this.

Continuation-bets should rise in frequency, but not necessarily value. If anything, you can sometimes continuation bet as low as half pot in this level. This, of course, is player dependent. A 150 cbet into a 250 chip pot is probably the standard, or a 125 into a 200 pot.

You’re also going to want to turn down your two barrel bluffing percentage. As the pot builds from preflop to the flop and then the turn, players will feel more pot committed when calling a street. The more bets they call the more of their stack is in the pot, therefore they will end up calling with a wider range of hands. There are still spots to bluff/semi-bluff, but it is generally harder and less frequent in this level.

Since we’ve gone over the main facets of preflop and postflop play, let’s put it all together and go over a couple of basic hand examples.

Reads on villain: Villain rarely folds preflop OOP. He will reraise his big hands preflop and raises a lot of limps. He has become more aggressive post flop as the game has gone on.

Hero (2100 chips)

Villain (900 chips)

Hero is in the small blind with (Kd7s)

K7o is a pretty strong hand 18 big blinds deep. Villain is calling a lot OOP and will reraise us with most, if not all of his premium hands preflop. Add in the fact that he raises limps aggressively and this hand is a clear raise preflop.

Hero raises to 100 chips. Villain calls.

Flop Kh8d4d (Pot is 200)

Villain checks, Hero bets 125 chips, Villain raises to 800 and is all in.

Villain has been very aggressive postflop. If the effective stacks were deeper it would probably be incorrect to move forward in this hand because villain would be less aggressive, meaning the range of hands he would be raising would include more Kx hands that have us dominated and more two pair or three of a kind hands. In this situation villain has shown more aggression as the stacks have become shallower compared to the blinds and the board has a clear flush draw out there. Villain may think his 8 is good here or may even be raising with some sort of gutshot straight draw. In this case we will call and feel confident that we are ahead of villain’s range.

Hero calls 675 chips. Villain flips over 9d7d. Hero’s pair holds and he wins the game.

This hand demonstrates the problem of calling OOP with too wide a range of hands when the blinds to stack-ratio is small. The hand also shows the difference in strength of hands in “short” stack to blind areas compared to situations in which we are deeper stacked.



-----------------------------------

Reads: Villain has been pretty loose and aggressive in the early part of the match. He has seemed to slow down lately but is still raising often preflop. Hero has been card dead most of the game and has won very few pots. The pots hero has won have been medium-large sized pots.

Hero (1200 chips)

Villain (1800 chips)

Hero is in the BB with 5s2c.

Villain calls 50 chips. Hero checks.

Flop KdTh4s

Here the flop has completely missed us. There are few draws on the board, a possible straight draw, but no flush draws. Villain has been raising often preflop so a lot of Kx and some Tx hands are not in his range. QJ is not likely in his range either. A lead bet here is good and should take down the pot very often.

Hero bets 70 chips. Villain folds.

If Villain had called here, we would give up on our hand and check/fold the turn and river almost all of the time. If villain had raised we would certainly fold.

The two hands above and the concepts described before them should give you a good idea of the key differences between the 25-50 play and the earlier levels of the game. The difference in starting hand values, preflop raises and controlled aggression are important to becoming a winning 25-50 player.

In future articles we will examine adapting to different styles of play, reraising or 3-betting OOP and how to keep yourself out of tough spots.



http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FJF6VN4Z

There's the video link, feel free to rehost it, I think megaupload limits the # of downloads. I haven't watched it since I made it, but it's really the only video I have for you guys now, sorry [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

shat4brains 10-08-2007 02:11 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
nice post
cliftnotes:dont suck at 25/50

dboy23 10-08-2007 02:46 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
good stuff.

jetlag99 10-08-2007 05:59 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Great post.

How do you see the video? .swf?

hra146 10-08-2007 07:17 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Very well written. Basic indeed but an excellent read.


WHEN IS YOUR FRIGGING SITE LAUNCHING? Its my default site in firefox and Im tired of this UC sign.

gcaash 10-08-2007 07:55 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
im looking forward to this site as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

shyturtle27 10-08-2007 10:03 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
It's about time you put this out [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]. Great article. Now go work on your site!!!

shyturtle27 10-08-2007 10:42 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Just watched the video as well. Great stuff! Did you take deep voice lessons from cwar?

Dromar 10-08-2007 11:42 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Excellent. Well done.

Kalledrengen 10-08-2007 02:19 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Nice Poo bah, very enjoyable to read [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When trying to download the movie I get a "The movie you are trying to download are temporarily unavailable" - Been so for the last 20 min. If anyone would care to rehost on another site that'll be great, if not I'll see if megauploads are more friendly towards me later ^^

Cheers, well done!

MatteyA28 10-08-2007 04:19 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
I'm downloading fine right now. Also as mentioned above what is .swf?

hra146 10-08-2007 04:30 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm downloading fine right now. Also as mentioned above what is .swf?

[/ QUOTE ]

get IrvanView or Macromedia Flash Player

MatteyA28 10-08-2007 04:46 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Thanks apparently I already have it anyways [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img].

BCM11 10-08-2007 05:01 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Nice post

derosnec 10-08-2007 06:02 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
good post. from my experience though (at 55s and lower) expect to be called almost always when minraising at 25/50.

jay_shark 10-08-2007 06:03 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
I think it's a well written post . I have a few difference and I hope you don't mind me critiquing your article .

If the blinds are at 25-50 and I have a hand like k-7 , I will often times raise to 150 if I expect my opponent to call me with a wide range of hands . It's a mathematical error to raise only 2.5x the BB because your hand should win more than 50% of the time in position ! . In some instances you may even consider raising to 4x if your opponent is spewy and will call a raise with atc's .

So again , I don't think you should restrict yourself to raising only 2.5x the bb without considering your opponent's reaction to it . You did mention that in rare situations you would bet more than 2.5x the bb , but I don't think it's that rare at all .

ChicagoRy 10-08-2007 06:07 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Before I completely respond to your post jayshark, I'd like others to have the time to read this.

I don't really agree with you though, for several reasons. We can get into it later though.

hra146 10-08-2007 06:29 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a well written post . I have a few difference and I hope you don't mind me critiquing your article .

If the blinds are at 25-50 and I have a hand like k-7 , I will often times raise to 150 if I expect my opponent to call me with a wide range of hands . It's a mathematical error to raise only 2.5x the BB because your hand should win more than 50% of the time in position ! . In some instances you may even consider raising to 4x if your opponent is spewy and will call a raise with atc's .

So again , I don't think you should restrict yourself to raising only 2.5x the bb without considering your opponent's reaction to it . You did mention that in rare situations you would bet more than 2.5x the bb , but I don't think it's that rare at all .

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine these guys to be pretty rare. I havent come across many at least. Also,


Hand 0: 55.187% 53.42% 01.77% { K7o }
Hand 1: 44.813% 43.04% 01.77% { random }



tbh, I dont follow you at all.

Nichomacheo 10-08-2007 06:52 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
good post. what will the next three articles cover?

also, i disagree with minraising. i think by raising more, you build the pot in position, and will generally get more value out of your good hands. in order for this to be effective, you have to limp some hands that you would call a 3-bet all in with. but, by limping, you don't make your opponent pay enough with his marginal T9o type hands. just my 2c.

daveT 10-08-2007 07:51 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
I do fine at the 25/50s.

I am not sure about the min-raise, because I like stealing pots, and raising 2x the blind is not going to help define my opponent's hand. When I am stealing for 3x as opposed to 2x, I am stealing 50 extra points, which is rather significant, and I am also more likely to not see a flop, which is fine for me.

My thoughts anyways--- I am very open minded about this though, and have attempted the 2x raise for a few games today, but the above is why I am not comfortable with this right now.

ChicagoRy 10-08-2007 10:11 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Postflop maneuverability/edge is greater when you commit less to the pot preflop.

You can raise many more hands and if they even fold a small % of the time they are playing very incorrectly against your strategy.

Also, it makes it very tough to 3-bet correctly against a constant minraiser in the 25-50, almost nobody I play does it correctly.

But the main reason for it is so you can actually use your tremendous edge postflop against your opponent, as you improve your game that should be where your edge becomes greatest, postflop (except in 50-100 level, though against some you can have a huge edge postflop in 50-100). Raising to 125 or 150 constantly in this level commits too much to the pot preflop, except in unique situations (for the 150 at least it is rare imo), limiting your ability to take advantage of your opponent postlfop.

Fish are still going to call over raises with too light of hands on the river, they're still going to overbet-bluff or overbet-shove the pot, you're just risking less and able to see more flops to take advantage of the horrible leaks players have in these games.

Don't get me wrong, coming up I raised 125-150 in this level until I got around 900 chips, only recently have I basically been minraising almost always. I feel it gives me a tremendous advantage in terms of hand reading and postflop play. It also has a fair advantage preflop, most importantly that it is almost impossible to exploit.

soop 10-08-2007 10:24 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Nice post. Looking forward to articles 2-4.

RyanJM 10-08-2007 10:30 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
I agree with Ry's strategy, it's what I've been doing for a while now. In simple terms, it makes your opponent pay more to see a flop, which puts more chips in when you are in position; but, it keeps the pot small enough that your c-bet doesn't take a huge chunk from your stack like it would if you raised 150 and had to c-bet 150/200 which would take a huge chunk from your stack should you miss and your opponent hit the flop. It's great to raise 150 if you're hitting or he misses, but I think it takes away your edge if you get a short run of bad cards and are down below 800 just from raising and c-betting w/nothing. Much easier to exploit a player post-flop than pre.

TNixon 10-09-2007 04:12 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Damn, I downloaded the video hoping to see some good 25/50 blind level play, since I'm pretty sure that's a weak spot of mine.

Instead, we just get to see ChicagoRy stack-a-donk twice over a very small number of hands.

Which is entertaining, to be sure, but not particularly informative, except for the comments about how you picked your raise size on the last hand in the second one.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Oh yeah, and articles 2-4 ASAP please. kthx

ChicagoRy 10-09-2007 04:56 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
If I made any videos right now you'd just see me folding hands like 52 and 73 repeatedly OOP and consistently losing with like top pair to a straight in big pots OTB.

I'm going to watch the video I posted above over and over so I can feel good about myself.

bbbushu 10-10-2007 11:01 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
also very excited for the next few articles [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: wtf i am almost a poobah

Nichomacheo 10-13-2007 09:39 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
[ QUOTE ]

Now that you’ve got a handle on preflop raise sizes, we can talk about the difference in preflop hand values. In the 25-50 level a lot of hands that were valuable to raise in previous levels will go down in value. Hands like suited connectors (56s, 78s) go down in value as the stack to blind ratio goes down. These are speculative hands and the main advantage of these speculative hands is the implied odds that you have with them. Your implied odds go down as the blind-stack ratio becomes smaller, meaning hands that make top pair are going to be going up in value while lower-card hands that need to make flushes, straights and two pair hands are going to go down in value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would people advise not to raise these hands at all when the stacks are 20-30bb range? I'm talking about the medium suited connectors, 1 gaps, 2 gaps. On the flop, if the BB calls, the pot will be 6 bb, you'll have like 22 left. You'll miss a lot of flops and have to fire a c-bet of 4. Now the pot is 10bb + 4 if your opponent calls. Does the times you win big pots offset all the small and medium sized pots you'll hit a monster/draw out?

HungryPeon 10-14-2007 11:44 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
thx for great post!

Deewhizzle 10-15-2007 07:36 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
great post.

MatteyA28 10-17-2007 05:28 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
When should we be expecting the next 3 parts?

ChicagoRy 10-17-2007 07:30 PM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
They will probably only be available to my website subscribers or personal students, I'm not totally sure.

Either way, I now have a loose date of April 2015 for the opening of my site, so I have some time to finish them.

ratone 10-22-2007 05:40 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
Great post, I´m also looking foward others parts and of course more videos [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
gj chicago

BarryLyndon 10-22-2007 11:55 AM

Re: (NLTRN) Poo Bah Post: An Introduction to the 25-50 Blind Level
 
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's a well written post . I have a few difference and I hope you don't mind me critiquing your article .

If the blinds are at 25-50 and I have a hand like k-7 , I will often times raise to 150 if I expect my opponent to call me with a wide range of hands . It's a mathematical error to raise only 2.5x the BB because your hand should win more than 50% of the time in position ! . In some instances you may even consider raising to 4x if your opponent is spewy and will call a raise with atc's .

So again , I don't think you should restrict yourself to raising only 2.5x the bb without considering your opponent's reaction to it . You did mention that in rare situations you would bet more than 2.5x the bb , but I don't think it's that rare at all .

[/ QUOTE ]

It all depends, right? First, these two examples are pretty cut and dry, but, it's only an introduction and a well written one at that. However, if my opponent is a REALLY WEAK flop player who is going to check/fold to my continuation bets at 25/50, then I'm raising 3x or 4x here because: 1. I have a better chance at getting a fold preflop (which is what I want with K7o); 2. I have a strong chance (say 60% or more) of taking the flop down when I totally miss.

As always, it depends on my opponent. If he is, as many, the loosey goosey kind who is gonna donk call OOP all of my [censored] flop bets and cause me all sorts of minraising grief, then I want to keep the pots as small as possible and small ball him to death until I can catch him in a mistake. I DON'T want to raise 3x BB here, 2 or 2.5x works so much better.

Good post.

Barry


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