Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

Hey guys,

This is my first post in this forum. I wanted to ask you guys about universal suffrage. Basically it means 'one person one vote' and stuff, like democracies do.

What do you think is the minimum educational requirement for it to be, on balance, a better thing for a country than alternative methods of government?

Should countries err on the side of introducing it too early (e.g. Philippines) or on the side of introducing it too late (e.g. South Korea)?

I thought of this when re-reading an old article on Bhutan (link: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5f68d3e6-f...b5df10621.html )

Would love to hear your opinions!

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

Looks like someone has a term paper due.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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I thought of this when re-reading an old article on Bhutan

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lol

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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Looks like someone has a term paper due.

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hahaha please let this be the reason for the op

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

I would like to see a "One foot, one vote" policy implemented, where you get to vote once for every foot tall you are. Then we could be ruled by the tallest of us, ala Invader Zim.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

I have a folder of interesting links saved. I thought of it when I was reading this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7025675.stm

It is written by BBC, a liberal media lapdog crony overmind who hates America.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

There should be some sort of test people had to take to be able to qualify for voting. Like a civics test of some sort. I wonder what kind of effect the implementation of a test, especially if it was hard, would have on politics in this country?

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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There should be some sort of test people had to take to be able to qualify for voting. Like a civics test of some sort. I wonder what kind of effect the implementation of a test, especially if it was hard, would have on politics in this country?

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I could probably pass it, but I'd never find out.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

We tried that. They were called literacy tests and they were part and parcel with Jim Crow as a way to keep black people poor and disenfranchised and thus unrepresented.

The problem with the OPs suggestion is that people tend to vote their own interests no matter how uneducated they are. I think a good example of this is laws restricting teenage driving. If politicians get wind that a certain category of people can't hurt them at the ballot box, the mind they pay their interests pretty much goes to zero.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

I am more thinking on the line of prerequisites for a country to introduce universal suffrage. For example, if you introduce it in a country where the citizens are totally unready for it, it could do more harm than good.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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What do you think is the minimum educational requirement for it to be, on balance, a better thing for a country than alternative methods of government?

[/ QUOTE ] None.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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We tried that. They were called literacy tests and they were part and parcel with Jim Crow as a way to keep black people poor and disenfranchised and thus unrepresented.

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Not to mention the poll tax, which was geared to curtail voting by blacks, while whites would get to vote for free by virtue of the 'grandfather clause'.

The tax circa 1900 was about $40-$60, in todays dollars.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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There should be some sort of test people had to take to be able to qualify for voting. Like a civics test of some sort. I wonder what kind of effect the implementation of a test, especially if it was hard, would have on politics in this country?

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You'd see a lot of this:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6733/trfb8.gif

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

How can you have a prerequisite for "universal" suffrage and why would anyone ever want it? To my knowledge it doesn't exist and I am skeptical that it ever will. I think what you are really wanting to know is something along the lines of, "What ought to be the standards a society holds for allowing a member a say in how it is run?"

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

That's right, volkin. That's the question I was asking but I phrased it badly. What education or maturity or whatever you want... what sort of things does a society need before universal suffrage is important?

I have run some simulations, and they say that universal suffrage shouldn't be adopted early in a society's life. For that, it is much better to have hereditary rule or representation, depending on how the society is set up.

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What were the simulations?

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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What were the simulations?

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This is probably what he was referring to.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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There should be some sort of test people had to take to be able to qualify for voting. Like a civics test of some sort. I wonder what kind of effect the implementation of a test, especially if it was hard, would have on politics in this country?

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You'd see a lot of this:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6733/trfb8.gif

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Hey, that's great. Do you have one with a kid saying "THIS EFFECTIVELY DISENFRANCHISES OUR COUNTRY'S POOR AND MINORITY POPULATIONS"?

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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what sort of things does a society need before universal suffrage is important?

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Strong cultural and institutional respect for the rule of law, for one. Voting doesn't really get you anything if the elected officials can do whatever they want once in power.

That's the only thing that comes to mind as necessary, but there are probably others.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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There should be some sort of test people had to take to be able to qualify for voting. Like a civics test of some sort. I wonder what kind of effect the implementation of a test, especially if it was hard, would have on politics in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd see a lot of this:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6733/trfb8.gif

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Hey, that's great. Do you have one with a kid saying "THIS EFFECTIVELY DISENFRANCHISES OUR COUNTRY'S POOR AND MINORITY POPULATIONS"?

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I'm pretty sure he posted that tongue-in-cheek.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

Here are examples of some countries that I think introduced universal suffrage too early on, and probably would have developed better with an alternative system:

Philippines
India
Indonesia
Most of South America (excluding Chile, I think Chile got it right)
Most of Africa
Iraq (through no fault of their own)


For examples of countries without universal suffrage that would be worse off with it at their current stage of development:

Russia
Vietnam
China


Some countries that would do better with suffrage:

Singapore


imo
I don't really have a strong opinion on this either way, so feel free to say whatever you think!

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

Compared to what? What do you think they should have had instead on universal sufferage?

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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How can you have a prerequisite for "universal" suffrage and why would anyone ever want it? To my knowledge it doesn't exist and I am skeptical that it ever will. I think what you are really wanting to know is something along the lines of, "What ought to be the standards a society holds for allowing a member a say in how it is run?"

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An overview of how 45 "democratic" countries regulate voting for felons. here
19 have no voting restrictions on felons, permitting them to vote while in prison or jail
13 have selective voting restrictions, banning voting for felons based upon various criteria
11 have a complete ban on inmate voting (voting while in prison or jail)
6 have some type of voting disenfranchisement for felons after their release from prison or jail

"Eighteen European democracies permit incarcerated prisoners to vote, as do Canada and Puerto Rico. In the U.S., only the states of Maine and Vermont do so. No democracy other than the United States bars parolees from voting." link

22.4% of America's 5.26 million disenfranchised felons are in Florida. If disenfranchised felons in Florida had been permitted to vote, Gore would certainly have carried the state, and the election in 2000.

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22.4% of America's 5.26 million disenfranchised felons are in Florida.

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The website you linked doesn't list Florida as banning ex-felons from voting. Is that in error?

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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22.4% of America's 5.26 million disenfranchised felons are in Florida.

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The website you linked doesn't list Florida as banning ex-felons from voting. Is that in error?

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Did you know? link. here [i]

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

On a realistic note, the universal suffrage should be limited to democrats, at least for a while, in the US! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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There should be some sort of test people had to take to be able to qualify for voting. Like a civics test of some sort. I wonder what kind of effect the implementation of a test, especially if it was hard, would have on politics in this country?

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You'd see a lot of this:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6733/trfb8.gif

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Yeah, I agree completely, however, I didn't mean for it to be a test that made it any less hard to vote if you are poor or a minority. I feel that if we are going to let regular people vote to put people in place who will control what this country does, I think it might me a good idea to try to ensure that those people voting have, at least, some idea where this country has been and how it began.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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We tried that. They were called literacy tests and they were part and parcel with Jim Crow as a way to keep black people poor and disenfranchised and thus unrepresented.

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We didn't try "that", we tried the rest of what you described and called it Literacy tests.

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The problem with the OPs suggestion is that people tend to vote their own interests no matter how uneducated they are. I think a good example of this is laws restricting teenage driving. If politicians get wind that a certain category of people can't hurt them at the ballot box, the mind they pay their interests pretty much goes to zero.

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I can see several good things with politicians not pandering to people who fail this test.

Note that I don't think this test should become implemented, but in theory it is a good idea.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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We tried that. They were called literacy tests and they were part and parcel with Jim Crow as a way to keep black people poor and disenfranchised and thus unrepresented.

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We didn't try "that", we tried the rest of what you described and called it Literacy tests.

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The problem with the OPs suggestion is that people tend to vote their own interests no matter how uneducated they are. I think a good example of this is laws restricting teenage driving. If politicians get wind that a certain category of people can't hurt them at the ballot box, the mind they pay their interests pretty much goes to zero.

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I can see several good things with politicians not pandering to people who fail this test.

Note that I don't think this test should become implemented, but in theory it is a good idea.

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So it's a good idea to disenfranchise people who don't meet your subjective criteria of smartness? Sounds awesome to me.

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22.4% of America's 5.26 million disenfranchised felons are in Florida.

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The website you linked doesn't list Florida as banning ex-felons from voting. Is that in error?

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Did you know? link. here

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But I'm not quite understanding how they are counting the 950,000 ex-felons as being unable to vote, when on the other link on their page, it doesn't show Florida as a state that doesn't allow ex-felons to vote.

They attribute almost 50% of all the disenfranchised ex-felons in the entire country to being in Florida, yet on their own site they say that Florida doesn't prevent ex-felons from voting. Something doesn't jive.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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I feel that if we are going to let regular people vote to put people in place who will control what this country does, I think it might me a good idea to try to ensure that those people voting have, at least, some idea where this country has been and how it began.

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If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded. – Karl Marx

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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I feel that if we are going to let regular people vote to put people in place who will control what this country does, I think it might me a good idea to try to ensure that those people voting have, at least, some idea where this country has been and how it began.

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If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded. – Karl Marx

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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. - Groucho Marx

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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They attribute almost 50% of all the disenfranchised ex-felons in the entire country to being in Florida, yet on their own site they say that Florida doesn't prevent ex-felons from voting. Something doesn't jive.

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I'm pretty sure that Florida does not allow ex-felons to vote. The note that Florida doesn't prevent ex-felons from voting is wrong.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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I'm pretty sure that Florida does not allow ex-felons to vote. The note that Florida doesn't prevent ex-felons from voting is wrong.

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It's so confusing. I found one source that says they do, and another source that says they don't.

One source even said they had the worst disenfranchisement law, in that they automatically precluded anyone convicted from voting, not just felons, but those guilty of misdemeanors alike.

That seemed plausible considering the gargantuan numbers being reported as disenfranchised relative to other states.

But another source said they allow ex-felons to vote, but in order to "regain" their right to vote after serving time, they have to re-apply to some council.

I don't even know why I care, but it is aggravating me that their is so many conflicting sources.

Does anyone have Jeb's cell phone number? Maybe he can clear it up?

Or better yet, is anyone here an ex-felon residing in Florida?

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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"What ought to be the standards a society holds for allowing a member a say in how it is run?"

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Yup, thats the question. I wonder if there is any universally 'right' answer? but it seems to me, to grant eligibility simply because you have had the competence to reach the age of 18 is pretty weak. Basing it on educational prerequisites does not seem fair. There are lots of highly 'educated' fools, and likewise, lots of 'uneducated' folk with common sense.

Perhaps a system, somewhat akin to an old time ocean voyage, perhaps a group of emigrants lighting out for the 'New World', where those that are net contributors to the upkeep and well being of the ship and it's passage make the decisions, while those mere loafing passengers, those who are a net drain on the ships resources, are not thrown over the side, but at the same time, they have no say in how the ship is run and the course it takes, if they'd like a say, pick up a mop and start swabbing.

Ok, ok, its just a silly pipe dream, but it makes sense on some level, I think.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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They attribute almost 50% of all the disenfranchised ex-felons in the entire country to being in Florida, yet on their own site they say that Florida doesn't prevent ex-felons from voting. Something doesn't jive.

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I'm pretty sure that Florida does not allow ex-felons to vote. The note that Florida doesn't prevent ex-felons from voting is wrong.

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Estimated Felon Disenfranchisement Totals

Florida:

13,094,945 Total Voting Population

1,179,687 Total Est. Disenfranchised (= 9.01% Total Est. % of Voting Pop. Disenfranchised)
=
84,210 Prisoners
+
4,694 Parolees
+
127,794 Probationers
+
5,565 Jail Inmates
+
957,423 Est. Ex-Felons

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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What do you think is the minimum educational requirement for it to be, on balance, a better thing for a country than alternative methods of government?

[/ QUOTE ] None.

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If we don't require "smarts" to cast a ballot, at least we should require it to get on the ballot. IQ test results for all politicians FTW.

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Maybe we could try not having such important positions elected by the masses. Imagine if the Fed Chair was decided by popular vote.

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I was more thinking on the country level, not the individual citizen level. Any thoughts about that?!

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Compared to what? What do you think they should have had instead on universal sufferage (sic)?

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Philippines - benign dictatorship or monarchy until civic education is higher. The sad thing is they were so close when they made the switch. They could have been the 51st state.

India - Centrally planned dictatorship, similar to Singapore.

Indonesia - No idea, sucks to be them.

Most of South America (excluding Chile, I think Chile got it right) - just keep the old system in place. With the US as its neighbour, they won't decline. So it's a matter of waiting for an enlightened ruler who will do the right things.

Most of Africa - loose tribal confederations, like it was before colonization.

Iraq (through no fault of their own) - absolute dictatorship such as under Saddam Hussein. Other alternatives would involve partition and also dictatorships.

Re: Prerequisites for universal suffrage
 

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There should be some sort of test people had to take to be able to qualify for voting. Like a civics test of some sort. I wonder what kind of effect the implementation of a test, especially if it was hard, would have on politics in this country?

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd see a lot of this:
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/6733/trfb8.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree completely, however, I didn't mean for it to be a test that made it any less hard to vote if you are poor or a minority. I feel that if we are going to let regular people vote to put people in place who will control what this country does, I think it might me a good idea to try to ensure that those people voting have, at least, some idea where this country has been and how it began.

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I don't really see how knowledge of the country's history has anything to do with a current right to vote. If a voter knows what he or she wants, then they will vote. Any sort of "test" will do exactly what the Jim Crow laws did, and exactly what that test did, limit the ability of the poor (be they white, black, hispanic, etc) to vote.