What goes around...
 

I was playing 10/20 LHE at Foxwoods in a fairly loose game so I limp in SB with T9o. There are three to the flop, which comes down 87x. There is a bet by the BB, followed by a raise by a guy at the far end of the table. I call the two bets. The turn is a J giving me the nuts and I call the raiser's bet.

Its two to the river which is a blank - I have the nuts. I check raise and he raises back. I re-raise and he raises back. I think about just calling because it is clearly a chop - but I raise one more time. He calls and says I have the straight. Which he doesn't. He misread his hand and he has nothing: a Ten and a 6.

I turn to the guy next to me, who is a pro, and probably the best player we see at 10/20 (he plays 20/40 a lot) and ask him if I should give the other guy back some or all of his bets. The pro's response was that I should not - because then everybody at the table would start having trouble reading their hands...

So I did nothing.

Time passes and the guy stays in the game - which I thought was very courageous. He moves down to the table two to my right and we start talking. I tell him I have misread a hand which cost me, and the pro, who had left, had told me about going 7 bets on the river with what he thought was the nuts, only to be saved by another pro who was too lazy to put more bets in.

I ask the guy if the glare was a problem where he was sitting - because he had put on sungleasses. He said no. So I asked if they were prescription sunglasses. He said no. He is blind in one eye and almost lost the other eye. He says he misread two hands already in this game. He said that he doesn't care about losing the money, he is just grateful every morning that he wakes up alive still with the ability to see a naked woman!!!

So the game continues, I am about to go. He is into the game for over $1,000. We are in a hand together with one other player - no raise pre-flop. I am SB with Q9s. The flop comes down with two of my suit and I have 2 overcards. I bet, call, call. Turn is a Q, putting a second flush draw up. I bet, call, call. River is a K. Not my suit. Not the third guy's suit. Check, check, he bets. I call. AK wins.

A few hands later. He calls, I raise pre-flop on the button with KTs. One other guy in. Flop is TTx, the x being my suit. BB bets, my guy calls, I call. Turn is Q of my suit. BB bets, my guy calls, I raise, BB folds, my guy calls and says "God, hit me on the river". As the words are out of his mouth, the dealer rivers an A not of my suit. He bets, I call. He shows me KJ for the win.

I can't remember ever being glad about taking two beats so close together on the river like that. The guy was beaming, and I wished him well. I left, rather than play one more circuit, because I thought we were about even, he and I - and I wasn't sure how God felt about it...

Why I posted this story here and not in the Medium Stakes low content thread, is I am curious about opinions about offering to return some or all of the guy's bets. Both at the time, and when I found out he was blind in one eye. Fire away.

Cliff notes: "What goes around comes around" or "You reap what you sow" or "Karma" or "Thats poker" or maybe even "Wake up every morning with a smile on your face and show the world all the love in your heart" (Carole King circa 1970).

However, if I had been a nicer guy, the cliff notes might have been, "No good deed goes unpunished!" ...

Re: What goes around...
 

I am a big believer in Poker Karma.

For this reason, I do not cheat, angle shoot, complain about bad beats (at the table) or act like I am on TV when I suckout/hit a 2 outer/get lucky in general.

However, I do not feel like you needed to give his bets back. You did nothing wrong. If he is legally blind or whatever, and still chooses to play the game then he must deal with his disability. I know many players who know they go on tilt, yet when they do they don't walk away, and therefore bleed off money. Would you feel bad about getting extra bets out of someone who was steaming?

I love the fact that you felt good about losing the 2 pots back to the guy. That is the best way ever for you to not go on tilt about getting rivered.

Cliff notes: believe in Karma, but still benefit from your opponents mistakes.

Re: What goes around...
 

Good story.

Like you, I would have really been considering giving him some chips back after the misread... good point by that pro though, I had never considered that angle.

Re: What goes around...
 

you dont give chips back after winning a pot. its not your fault he misread his hand.

Re: What goes around...
 

Since this story involves poker player blindness, we need to hear Clarkmeister's opinion.

Re: What goes around...
 

Hi Mr Rick,


Glad to hear you're tearing up the tables as usual. I agree with Rob the duck's points:

[ QUOTE ]
For this reason, I do not cheat, angle shoot, complain about bad beats (at the table) or act like I am on TV when I suckout/hit a 2 outer/get lucky in general.

However, I do not feel like you needed to give his bets back. You did nothing wrong. If he is legally blind or whatever, and still chooses to play the game then he must deal with his disability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would not give anything back; like all other players, he is an adult and must accentuate his strengths and deal with his weaknesses/disabilities (did you ever hear the one about the dyslexic poker player who kept thinking he got rivered, but was really behind the whole way?).

It certainly would be kind to return some loot; however, moral judgments are not universal and this judgment is in the end up to you. Another important thing to note is that some players might find the offer to return funds condescending or that you are pitying the disability.

On the other hand, returning the loot might obscure your intimidating shark-like image of a 10/20 predator.

Re: What goes around...
 

Are you talking about the guy who appears to have suffered a bad burn on his face and neck and had some kind of reconstructive surgury?

Re: What goes around...
 

It sounds like both of you have your priorities right. In his case being thankful for the remaining ability to appreciate pleasures in his life. In yours, holding on to an empathy for the human condition.

No need to donate chips back since you’re each ahead where it matters.

Re: What goes around...
 

Wow, I just met you on friday. Based on our limited conversastion I can say firsthand you seemed like a cool/stand up guy.

What I have read here is suprising to me though. Don't know too many people who would even consider something like this. You definetly would be going above and beyond if you did, but I don't think I ever do this.

I know its limit, but in NL this happens all the time and for many more BB's. I have lost 200+ misplaying the suit of my cards when I thought I had a flush (I hate it when my spades turn into clubs!). My opponent laughed, and I felt like an idiot, but definetly deserved to lose the pot since I misplayed my hand. Its my responsibility as a poker player

I have seen one woman who had 1600 behind her at 1/2 give back money. I couldn't believe my eyes. Someone folded KK on a board of KT8T3 because he put her on the nut flush. His read was correct, and he folded for $150 more or something in a huge pot. She gave him back all the money he put in on previous streets, after he realized he had mucked a full house. I dont think I will ever see that happen again at a casino in my lifetime.

Re: What goes around...
 

Was keeping the chips morally wrong? No. Would giving some back be morally wrong? No. This is one of those cases where you have to do what you feel is most fair in your heart. I don't think anyone else can really judge this one either way.

Re: What goes around...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you talking about the guy who appears to have suffered a bad burn on his face and neck and had some kind of reconstructive surgury?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. No way to tell this guy had a disability.

Re: What goes around...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Another important thing to note is that some players might find the offer to return funds condescending or that you are pitying the disability.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I wouldn't want to embarass him on top of the original embarassment. And the thought about the disability rings true as well. His attitude about his vision liability seemed to be that he took it in stride.

[ QUOTE ]
On the other hand, returning the loot might obscure your intimidating shark-like image of a 10/20 predator.

[/ QUOTE ]
This just makes me laugh every time I read it. The fact that I asked an incredibly intimidating pro might have served me well because now he will look at me as a light touch. And in fact he offered some helpful advice to me at various points in the game.

Of course once he reads this his attitude about me might change...

Re: What goes around...
 

Mr. Rick you are a good egg, a real class act. Guys like you are the reason I actually enjoy playing live poker there aren't too many like you around. I think you handled the situation in the best way possible.

Re: What goes around...
 

Hey Mr Rick --

Long time no see. I've been really busy of late, and haven't played at FW in like 4-5 weeks. I hope to be down this Saturday however for some 10-20.


I had a similar situation at Fox 10-20 a few months back. I was in a hand with Stan (older gentlemen who plays like every weekend; genuinely nice guy).

I was lagging it up as usual and raised QJo in the CO to open. Stan called as did BB I think.

Flop like T9x

I bet, Stan called.

Turn brick

I bet, Stan called.

River brick

I pick up 4 redbirds from my stack and begin to give a slight forward wrist motion. The chips neither leave my hand nor do they cross the line while in my hand. Stan, as soon as he sees my slight motion, announces "I call" and fires 4 birds into the pot.

At this point, I look at the dealer. He has not announced my bet, and I say "check." The dealer views this as legal and Stan gets shipped the pot minus the 20 bucks. Another player asks Stan if he would like to call the floor, and he says no.

Now, I must honestly say, I did intend to bet; the only thing that stopped me was his instacall (I had Q hi, after all). Because of this, I tossed Stan the 4 reds after the next hand -- perhaps unnecessary, I don't know.

Should I have been committed to pay Stan the $20?



magic

Re: What goes around...
 

You're right. If you were nicer your Q9 would have won the 2nd to last hand.

Re: What goes around...
 

I did the same thing. Against a different regular I started to bet and when I saw the call coming I stopped (well short of my cards). But instead of saying check, I just put the chips in. If I was the Floor I would have ruled it a bet (my motion like yours was very clearly an intended bet).

Next time against the same player though I will check his hands while I am picking up my chips. If I see any chips I will back off (unless I actually have a hand). He always will call there, but he doesn't want me to bet.

Re: What goes around...
 

As previously stated, I know that I personally would find it condescending if someone offered me some of my bets back.

The farthest my conscience has ever driven me in a situation like that is I might check the nuts on the river with him on a future hand when I know he's likely to go for another 1-2 bets. Although I would tell him thats what I'm doing. There is no point checking the nuts as a favor if the guy doesn't realize you did it.

I think the only other change I've ever made in my play for the sake of the game (as opposed to my stack) is if I happen to suck out and I know it, I might make a stupidly big bet as a warning. I have even on occasion said aloud "I sucked out on you" before he/she calls. But the only time I've ever done this is in a situation where I was attempting to preserve happiness at the table or keep a calling station in the game to suck money out of the nits.

Now that I think about it, I'm doing that for my own benefit too, so I guess it probably doesn't count on my good karma rating.

Oh well, I guess I can't escape my own cold, calculating nature.

Re: What goes around...
 

Negative. And I'm a pretty nice guy. For example, if I got in a pot with him later and we got it up to about 4 bets on the river, I might ask him if he wants to double check his cards. Then again, I might not. He knows what he's doing, or what he should be responsible for doing. Anything else on your part could be condescending or patronizing.

Re: What goes around...
 

I've played with him too. Agreed.