PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

PokerStars PLO $2-4 hand. 6-max hand.
Table has been very active, CO+1 is a maniac opening 65% of his hands and has juiced up play. Villain ($450) has had average stats so far, nothing of note but he's been OOP vs. maniac. Hero ($1300) was very LAG early vs. another huge LAG, but has slowed down over the last 20 min and been tight-solid but pretty passive preflop since getting a big stack.

UTG opens for full pot.
CO+1 maniac surprisingly folds
Hero (CO) calls with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Others fold, so HU to flop

Flop A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG leads full pot.
What’s your plan? Raise? Call? (or do you fold preflop?)

If you call, what’s your plan if he leads out on:
- on a blank turn ?
- a low club?
- an offsuit Q,J,T?

Thx,
-g

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

Curse yourself for not folding preflop.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

fold flop imo

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

Bad reverse implied odds here, and the fact that improving to the winner will get you $0, makes this a bad spot for me and I probably fold. It's way too easy for your opponent to have AAxx, KKxx, or AKxx here. It is possible he has a piece with higher clubs. Assuming these make up a huge part of his range, there is almost no good turn card for you, and plenty of bad ones. If your clubs happen to be good, you will get no action. I'd dump it.

PF with position, this hand seems OK, but you are playing to make NUT flushes and straight, not this kind of board.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

You've got position and still about 13x the pot left here. You can call this on the flop, expecting to either have the best hand or best draw about 90% of the time. On any turn, if he checks, I'm firing (though not full pot, more like 3/4). If he bets a blank turn for the pot or near, I'm folding, a low club I will call one bet, an offsuit Q,J or T I'm folding.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

Re-read the above. A "blank turn" (i.e. 2's and 4's thru 7's, non clubs) and non club T-J-Q, makes up 24 cards. This means that over half the time your hand is going to be an autofold, as your opponent is checking the turn very rarely. Stick in the fact that a 9/8 isn't really an improvement for you, and that you can't play a big pot with any other cards, and this is a fairly easy fold.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

You're not playing A983 to see that on the flop. Easy fold post flop since you will never know where you are in the hand on the turn or river.
If you call the flop, no matter what card hits, you will have a tough time value betting it when you are ahead and folding it when you are behind.
You will spew more than you milk here by calling this flop.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're not playing A983 to see that on the flop. Easy fold post flop since you will never know where you are in the hand on the turn or river.
If you call the flop, no matter what card hits, you will have a tough time value betting it when you are ahead and folding it when you are behind.
You will spew more than you milk here by calling this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you call preflop?

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

Calling pre-flop is fine, but I'd fold the flop. If It were something like AT3 maybe call. You don't really know where you're at here so you're likely to be the one making mistakes rather than him.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

nothing too bad about the preflop call with a suited ace in position, but as ribbo said, this isn't the flop you called to see.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You're not playing A983 to see that on the flop. Easy fold post flop since you will never know where you are in the hand on the turn or river.
If you call the flop, no matter what card hits, you will have a tough time value betting it when you are ahead and folding it when you are behind.
You will spew more than you milk here by calling this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you call preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Me personally? All the time from button or cutoff.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

preflop is fine. Definitely take one off on the flop. You can give up most turns if he keeps firing.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

is it reasonable that utg raised pre flop with some low suited wrap hand?

my god man........call.

you'll know exactly where you stand on the turn no matter what card comes up........ by calling the flop.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
nothing too bad about the preflop call with a suited ace in position, but as ribbo said, this isn't the flop you called to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

but its not a flop to fold either.

i thought poker was an information game. i'm not trying to be a smart ass but hmmmmmmm, i flop 2 pair with a flush draw and i'm heads up with position........fold. doesnt make sense.

ok ok, i understand that there is a liklihood that you are up against a better hand or better draw.......but not likely up against both.

i just cant see how anyone can fold here without any information. i snap call this all day long.

the turn will tell you all you need to know.

and ok, lets face it, there isnt much reward in this pot even if you do end up with the best hand but i think its a great small pot situation.

utg can have a bunch of different hands that you have crushed right now but he is trying to represent that flop. i know i would if i was utg.

i'd be more nervous of a check by utg on the flop to tell you the truth.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nothing too bad about the preflop call with a suited ace in position, but as ribbo said, this isn't the flop you called to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

but its not a flop to fold either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is, because in this case it really doesn't matter what the villain has. There is not one card in the deck you want to see hit on the turn, not one. It's impossible for you to draw to the nuts here so value betting will be a big problem as will knowing when you're ahead or behind.
I mention this in one of my videos how giving up a few pots on the flop means you will never have a tough decision for all your stack later in the hand.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

If you don't think you can outplay your opponent in "tough decisions" then dont' even call preflop. You did call, so play.

I almost certainly call the flop and evaluate the turn.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

Is making a raise for information on the flop out of the question? Villain could have a hand like QQJT or another suited connecting hand and trying to represent AAxx or KKxx.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nothing too bad about the preflop call with a suited ace in position, but as ribbo said, this isn't the flop you called to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

but its not a flop to fold either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is, because in this case it really doesn't matter what the villain has. There is not one card in the deck you want to see hit on the turn, not one. It's impossible for you to draw to the nuts here so value betting will be a big problem as will knowing when you're ahead or behind.
I mention this in one of my videos how giving up a few pots on the flop means you will never have a tough decision for all your stack later in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

who says you have to play for stacks? call the flop, if villan bets turn then muck, if villan checks turn, then op's hand is probably good.

they dont always have aces with nut flush draw.

villan can easily have 8 high here too.

ugh, i guess we just see things totally different. i dont exactly hate a fold either but that just seems a little too nitty for me.

dont we have to give a little action to get some action too?

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is making a raise for information on the flop out of the question? Villain could have a hand like QQJT or another suited connecting hand and trying to represent AAxx or KKxx.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising for info is hardly ever a good play. calling is much better here.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

i think preflop is ok.

tough situation on the flop. i think a fold is ok. or i may call and evaluate on the turn

on the turn i would fold if he bets and i didn't hit a club. if i hit a club i would call and fold to a river bet. it is very passive but your hand is fragile and having 2 pair means nothing if opponent has AK, AA or KK which is highly probable.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

Top and bottom pair or bottom two pair with non-nut redraws is a very easy was to lose money. Unless you have a very good read on your opponent all your decisions will much tougher.
It is not a crime to sometimes fold a hand when you are ahead and the pot is relatively small if it will save you from being way behind in a big pot.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think preflop is ok.

tough situation on the flop. i think a fold is ok. or i may call and evaluate on the turn

on the turn i would fold if he bets and i didn't hit a club. if i hit a club i would call and fold to a river bet. it is very passive but your hand is fragile and having 2 pair means nothing if opponent has AK, AA or KK which is highly probable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain doesn't have to have AK, AA, or KK to be ahead here, but it certainly helps...
Worst case scenario:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769201
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad kc qh 7c -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 79 9.63 741 90.37 0 0.00 0.096
Kc 7c Ad Qh 741 90.37 79 9.63 0 0.00 0.904

If villain has a better flush draw and an ace....

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769204
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad qc td 7c -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 270 32.93 550 67.07 0 0.00 0.329
Qc 7c Ad Td 550 67.07 270 32.93 0 0.00 0.671

Against the QJT with clubs combo you're chopping...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769206
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - qc jh td 7c -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 404 49.27 416 50.73 0 0.00 0.493
Qc 7c Td Jh 416 50.73 404 49.27 0 0.00 0.507

Against bare Ace-King

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769210
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad kd qh 5s -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 327 39.88 493 60.12 0 0.00 0.399
5s Ad Kd Qh 493 60.12 327 39.88 0 0.00 0.601

Against AQJT no clubs you're safely ahead....

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769213
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad qh js th -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 576 70.24 244 29.76 0 0.00 0.702
Js Ad Qh Th 244 29.76 576 70.24 0 0.00 0.298


My point is there are a bunch of bad matchups here. It all comes down to your read of the opponent. If you think he is capable of C-betting with something like 5678 with a baby flush draw then shove it in. But there are lots of legitimate hands he can hold here where you are in bad shape.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Is making a raise for information on the flop out of the question? Villain could have a hand like QQJT or another suited connecting hand and trying to represent AAxx or KKxx.

[/ QUOTE ]

raising for info is hardly ever a good play. calling is much better here.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the point in raising "for info" when that self same raise pot commits you no matter the action when it comes back to you? Congrats, you've just learned he has you beat but now you can't fold anyway.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

I do not believe you have to call if your pot committed. If you are certain you are crushed with no outs, then you fold.

By raising you might get him to fold and you take the pot down. As stated a few times already, there are not many good cards on the turn, so basically your calling and giving up no matter what.

I am just looking at a way to maybe win the pot, every poster so far seems to have given up on the hand. Which might be the right play, I am trying to think outside the box.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

call flop. I will keep calling turn and river vs a tough aggro player since our hand looks so weak.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I do not believe you have to call if your pot committed. ...

[/ QUOTE ]
By definition, yes you do.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

preflop is ok, call flop and see what happens.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think preflop is ok.

tough situation on the flop. i think a fold is ok. or i may call and evaluate on the turn

on the turn i would fold if he bets and i didn't hit a club. if i hit a club i would call and fold to a river bet. it is very passive but your hand is fragile and having 2 pair means nothing if opponent has AK, AA or KK which is highly probable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain doesn't have to have AK, AA, or KK to be ahead here, but it certainly helps...
Worst case scenario:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769201
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad kc qh 7c -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 79 9.63 741 90.37 0 0.00 0.096
Kc 7c Ad Qh 741 90.37 79 9.63 0 0.00 0.904

If villain has a better flush draw and an ace....

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769204
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad qc td 7c -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 270 32.93 550 67.07 0 0.00 0.329
Qc 7c Ad Td 550 67.07 270 32.93 0 0.00 0.671

Against the QJT with clubs combo you're chopping...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769206
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - qc jh td 7c -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 404 49.27 416 50.73 0 0.00 0.493
Qc 7c Td Jh 416 50.73 404 49.27 0 0.00 0.507

Against bare Ace-King

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769210
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad kd qh 5s -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 327 39.88 493 60.12 0 0.00 0.399
5s Ad Kd Qh 493 60.12 327 39.88 0 0.00 0.601

Against AQJT no clubs you're safely ahead....

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3769213
pokenum -o as 3s 9c 8c - ad qh js th -- ac kh 3c
Omaha Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing Ac 3c Kh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As 3s 9c 8c 576 70.24 244 29.76 0 0.00 0.702
Js Ad Qh Th 244 29.76 576 70.24 0 0.00 0.298


My point is there are a bunch of bad matchups here. It all comes down to your read of the opponent. If you think he is capable of C-betting with something like 5678 with a baby flush draw then shove it in. But there are lots of legitimate hands he can hold here where you are in bad shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the demos.

do you think that you will be facing a turn bet more than 50% of the time in these spots if you call on the flop?

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

The problem with raising is that it only defeats hands that you are well ahead of. You do get plenty of action from hands that have you crushed.

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

im in the call - evaluate camp. you dont have to fear the worst always. his action on the turn will tell you if your hand is good or not. yes this is a bad situation, but you are not forced to stack off if you hit the flush for example. and you have position which is a huge argument for calling imo

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

Great replies, thanks.

I figured if he did have AA or KK he might have gone for a check-raise with the maniac raising every hand so his range was wider and on that flop he bets everything he would have preflop. So I think call might be better here but its close.


-g

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

What flop are we hoping for when we call this preflop?

Re: PLO Aces up+FD vs. ?
 

I'm going with call-reevaluate as well. In my 6-max experience from .50/1 to 3/6, most LAG villains not only raise preflop when first in most of the time, they c-bet for pot on any flop 99% of the time no matter what they have (maybe not the case on Stars?) or no matter who their opponent is, so I think folding is weak here on the flop, but yeah, fold the turn if he fires 3/4 pot or more and you don't improve drastically. I think you'll see AFC enough here to peel, but I'd be tempted to bet 1/2 pot on turn if checked to and fold to a raise, just so he doesn't catch some bad draw or a set just in case.