LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

One thing I've always struggled with is raising my PFR. Typically my PFR is about half of my VP$IP.

Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers. Are you guys always 3-betting this with position? I guess a lot of the difference in my VP/PFR comes from situations like this where I have a hand I can stack but a 3-bet would pretty much ruin my implied odds for the hand. Same thing with cold calling raises in the blinds with hands that can stack but 3-betting with horrible position is so gross.

I just don't understand how you can get to say 20/18 or 17/15 without 3-betting nearly every single hand you play.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

almost never limp, raise a wide range from CO/BTN

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers.

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I'm assuming you play <100nl? Cuz this doesn't really happen that often at 200nl+.

To answer your Q basically just never open limp and cold call/overlimp rarely.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers. Are you guys always 3-betting this with position?

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This is a pretty standard call. I'd say anything other than calling is bad here.

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I guess a lot of the difference in my VP/PFR comes from situations like this where I have a hand I can stack but a 3-bet would pretty much ruin my implied odds for the hand.

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Not at all. These multi-way spots come up pretty rarely.

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I just don't understand how you can get to say 20/18 or 17/15 without 3-betting nearly every single hand you play.

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Don't open-limp.
Rarely cold-call in heads-up spots. Only cold-call in multi-way spots where you're looking to hit a good flop, and the gap between your VPIP and PFR will shrink.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers.

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I'm assuming you play <100nl? Cuz this doesn't really happen that often at 200nl+.

To answer your Q basically just never open limp and cold very/overlimp rarely.

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The vast majority of my cold calling range is with 22-TT. At NL200+, do you routinely 3bet or fold them to an EP or EMP raise?


For example:-

20/8 UTG+2 raises to 4bb, folded to you on the Button holding 77. Your play?

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

standard call

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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standard call

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99 or TT might be a different story depending on the villain.

Happy birthday GM!

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

22-88 is only 3.2% of hands.

To get to a 10% difference you would have to limp or call: TT-22,AJs-A2s,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,43s,32s

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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standard call

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So, given the fact that your pfr is close to your vpip, does 22-99 make up almost all of your CCs?

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

Or just remember "if it's good enough to call it's most likely good enough to raise".

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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standard call

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So, given the fact that your pfr is close to your vpip, does 22-99 make up almost all of your CCs?

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No. I also didn't say my pfr is THAT close to my VPIP, just saying that's how one would get there.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Or just remember "if it's good enough to call it's most likely good enough to raise".

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This is the reason I have been posting in this thread - I don't agree.

I think it is clearly better to call a raise with a small/mid pair, than it is to 3bet or fold.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Or just remember "if it's good enough to call it's most likely good enough to raise".

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This has always seemed like the dumbest saying to me.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Or just remember "if it's good enough to call it's most likely good enough to raise".

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This has always seemed like the dumbest saying to me.

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Thats because it is.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you play <100nl? Cuz this doesn't really happen that often at 200nl+.

To answer your Q basically just never open limp and cold call/overlimp rarely.

[/ QUOTE ]

this sounds like limit advice to me.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

I got my %'s closer by doing 2 things

1) I don't open-limp anymore. IMO, it screams, I have a low pair! By raising with these, I've been able to get paid off more with my high pairs, and mislead villain into thinking I hit TPTK on the A-T-6 board and he's gonna bust me with 2pair, when in reality, I'm holding 66.

2) I won't coldcall a raise unless

a) There is more than 1 caller already and I have a drawing hand/small PP.

b)I have position, we're both deepstacked, AND I know he'll stack off with an overpair. Depending on villain, I might do this with ATC, but usually I want some kind of drawing hand.

After making these changes, my stats went from 13/8 to 12/10 and opponents' play against me has been easier to deal with (assuming I don't donk things up lol)

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

Don't forget that just completing the SB reduces you PFR%.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

Also raise more out of the blinds, most people are way too passive in those spots

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

Happy Birthday GM!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Hmmm...what's a good raise from the blind % in comparison to your PFR?

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

My PFR from the Blinds is about 1/2 to 2/3 of my button PFR.

If I open the pot I always raise. I cold call nearly always with:22-TT, sometimes suited connectors, QQ and AK rarely with A2s to A5s.
Sometimes I 3bet (off)suited connectors in position... but thats my FPS atm ^^

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers.

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I'm assuming you play <100nl? Cuz this doesn't really happen that often at 200nl+.

To answer your Q basically just never open limp and cold call/overlimp rarely.

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this sounds like limit advice to me.

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I think so too. It´s a Limit Holdem thing.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

It's possible to be playing nearly optimally and have a 15/9 VP$IP/PFR, depending on the tables you play at. This is at NL5 to 25, and maybe even 50 sometimes.

However, it is very,very unlikely for a 15/9 preflop strategy to be optimal at NL200- actually unlikely to be a winning strategy much less optimal...

The small PP in position is a great example of why this is so. If there is a raise from EP with 2-3 callers, then it is definately profitable to call with 22-88 from the button. This situation will occur at NL5-25 and sometimes 50 WAY more often than at NL200.

The reason why you see NL200+ balla players with 19/17 stats is because the table dynamics are WAY different than at a NL25 table.

I guess what I'm trying to say is not to worry about the VP$IP/PFR gap too much unless your raising less than half the hands you're playing preflop if you're at NL50 or below. Play the table, not to a preset pokertracker ideal.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

Great post Mike, I wholeheartedly agree. I wanted to post something similar but it was something I was having trouble putting into words so I decided not to post.

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Play the table, not to a preset pokertracker ideal.

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Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

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Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you play <100nl? Cuz this doesn't really happen that often at 200nl+.

To answer your Q basically just never open limp and cold call/overlimp rarely.

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this sounds like limit advice to me.

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Thats cuz I have no idea how to play NL hold em.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

also i wasn't saying you HAVE TO never open limp and cold call/overlimp rarely, I was answering the Q of how to get your pfr close to your vpip.

BUT i do think that it is best to pla ythat way at limits >=200nl

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

also also

this thread sucks

HU4ROLLZ

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Let's say you have 22-88 OTB and there was an EP raise and a few cold callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming you play <100nl? Cuz this doesn't really happen that often at 200nl+.

To answer your Q basically just never open limp and cold call/overlimp rarely.

[/ QUOTE ]

this sounds like limit advice to me.

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Thats cuz I have no idea how to play NL hold em.

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time to defend donk, with more advocation of limited/no openlimping, and rare coldcalling

I do overlimp a modest amount

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

I play on the nittier side (14/8) and i have been trying to overlimp more to increase my VPIP. It may be mental but i seem to get so much more action when i play like 17/8. The problem for me is that i find it too hard to play 12 tbls of that style and i am so ADD once i start a session i just add more tables until stars gives me the stupid pop up limiting me.

Edited to add that the money u invest in these speculative hands will/should be made up for in ur made hands/monsters. Its not like u need to show a direct profit with 78cc to make it a weapon in your arsenal. I think that was one of the best posts i ever read on 2p2 where i learned and actually applied that concept. Sry if this is hard to read, hope it helps.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

Just to note I played ~20/10 at levels <100nl while I was roll-building. It worked at those levels...just understand that it is kinda "wrong" and you will have to change your game if you move up.

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I got my %'s closer by doing 2 things

1) I don't open-limp anymore. IMO, it screams, I have a low pair! By raising with these, I've been able to get paid off more with my high pairs, and mislead villain into thinking I hit TPTK on the A-T-6 board and he's gonna bust me with 2pair, when in reality, I'm holding 66.

2) I won't coldcall a raise unless

a) There is more than 1 caller already and I have a drawing hand/small PP.

b)I have position, we're both deepstacked, AND I know he'll stack off with an overpair. Depending on villain, I might do this with ATC, but usually I want some kind of drawing hand.

After making these changes, my stats went from 13/8 to 12/10 and opponents' play against me has been easier to deal with (assuming I don't donk things up lol)

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Really nice reply, quoting it so that everyone else can read the goodness!

Re: LC: How do you get VP$IP and PFR close?
 

i think the main thing that i found with changing my game, not open limping was that my game before was very much a set mining strategy, which will make money. This involved open limping low pp in EP and MP.

BUT the main con of this strategy, is that your play becomes so much more dependant on sets, and big pairs. Since i have changed to never open limping, i find my sessions are less dependant on sets/ big pairs, and all my other hands are now contributing a lot more to my money won.
It is something u wont see in the short run, but over a longer period of hands, it will show.