Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

Ok so I feel bad this woman is dead, but the basic story is she got drunk , was late for her plane, got belligerent, threw a tantrum, had to be restrained, and choked herself to death.

Now the NY Times is writing articles about her death as if it was some sort of mystery or coverup by the Phoenix police. Her family has hired high-powered lawyers to investigate. Liberal blogs are talking about police brutality, why was she chained, why wasn't someone watching her at all times, etc.

This is yet another symptom of modern American life. When something bad happens, look for someone to blame. Never mind had the woman acted even a little bit like a reasonable adult she'd be sipping tea in rehab right now.

Am I off base for just thinking this was a woman who acted retarded and has no one to blame but herself?

Sorry if this doesn't belong in politics - but I think it points out a larger issue... the death of personal responsibility in America. If you're fat, sue McDonalds. If you get lung cancer from smoking 2 packs a day, sue the tobacco company. If your kid sucks, blame the music he listens to. Gas too expensive? Must be price-gouging by gas station owners. We've become a whiny, scapegoat, "find someone to blame" society, and I'm not sure if we can go back now.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

You're not alone. It's a sad story, but she did it to herself. I hope none of the cops get into trouble for this.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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Am I off base for just thinking this was a woman who acted retarded and has no one to blame but herself?

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Nope your right on track. And I for one am with you.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

If indeed she was borderline suicidal to start and headed to alcohol rehab with an itinerary that included a change of planes, why on earth did her family let her travel alone?

They want to point fingers, they should go find a mirror.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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If indeed she was borderline suicidal to start and headed to alcohol rehab with an itinerary that included a change of planes, why on earth did her family let her travel alone?

They want to point fingers, they should go find a mirror.

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I agree with this but she was in police custody and the first definition of 'custody' is care and guardianship meaning I think she should've been watched more closely esp. given her agitated state.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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I agree with this but she was in police custody and the first definition of 'custody' is care and guardianship meaning I think she should've been watched more closely esp. given her agitated state.

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Or she could have just calmed down, acted like a semi-reasonable adult, and not strangled herself. I don't think that every belligerent drunk is owed 24/7 police supervision when they're in a holding cell, on the off chance they might strangle themselves.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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I agree with this but she was in police custody and the first definition of 'custody' is care and guardianship meaning I think she should've been watched more closely esp. given her agitated state.

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Or she could have just calmed down, acted like a semi-reasonable adult, and not strangled herself. I don't think that every belligerent drunk is owed 24/7 police supervision when they're in a holding cell, on the off chance they might strangle themselves.

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We'll find out at the end of the lawsuit (if we live long enough). And if she were capable of just calming down she wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. I don't want to be critical of the police here because the woman bears the greater part of the responsibility but if I had to guess I'd say that there will be new procedures in place after this case is reviewed by the department.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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I agree with this but she was in police custody and the first definition of 'custody' is care and guardianship meaning I think she should've been watched more closely esp. given her agitated state.

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Or she could have just calmed down, acted like a semi-reasonable adult, and not strangled herself. I don't think that every belligerent drunk is owed 24/7 police supervision when they're in a holding cell, on the off chance they might strangle themselves.

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We'll find out at the end of the lawsuit (if we live long enough). And if she were capable of just calming down she wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. I don't want to be critical of the police here because the woman bears the greater part of the responsibility but if I had to guess I'd say that there will be new procedures in place after this case is reviewed by the department.

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There should already be procedures to put prisoners who pose a danger to themselves under special observation.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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I agree with this but she was in police custody and the first definition of 'custody' is care and guardianship meaning I think she should've been watched more closely esp. given her agitated state.

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Or she could have just calmed down, acted like a semi-reasonable adult, and not strangled herself. I don't think that every belligerent drunk is owed 24/7 police supervision when they're in a holding cell, on the off chance they might strangle themselves.

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We'll find out at the end of the lawsuit (if we live long enough). And if she were capable of just calming down she wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. I don't want to be critical of the police here because the woman bears the greater part of the responsibility but if I had to guess I'd say that there will be new procedures in place after this case is reviewed by the department.

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There should already be procedures to put prisoners who pose a danger to themselves under special observation.

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Millions of people get drunk everyday and manage not to strangle themselves. Why does she need a babysitter?

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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Millions of people get drunk everyday and manage not to strangle themselves. Why does she need a babysitter?

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Because the knee-jerk reaction in America is to seek someone to blame whenever someone acts like an idiot. Why blame a grown woman for throwing an infantile tantrum and trying to free herself from her handcuffs, when it's so much more satisfying to blame the police?

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

For those of you with experience of being handcuffed - how is it possible to strangle self while handcuffed?

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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I agree with this but she was in police custody and the first definition of 'custody' is care and guardianship meaning I think she should've been watched more closely esp. given her agitated state.

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Or she could have just calmed down, acted like a semi-reasonable adult, and not strangled herself. I don't think that every belligerent drunk is owed 24/7 police supervision when they're in a holding cell, on the off chance they might strangle themselves.

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We'll find out at the end of the lawsuit (if we live long enough). And if she were capable of just calming down she wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. I don't want to be critical of the police here because the woman bears the greater part of the responsibility but if I had to guess I'd say that there will be new procedures in place after this case is reviewed by the department.

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There should already be procedures to put prisoners who pose a danger to themselves under special observation.

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That is the key point I think. I am not sure how everybody is so quick to decide on this one. The police could deserve most of the blame or none.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

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Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

The issue in this particular case is that it's not clear if the cops knew she was mentally ill. They detained her for being drunk and violent, and they can't be expected to either perform mental health assessments or read minds. How could they distinguish between her and someone who is just an ass?

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

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Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

The issue in this particular case is that it's not clear if the cops knew she was mentally ill. They detained her for being drunk and violent, and they can't be expected to either perform mental health assessments or read minds. How could they distinguish between her and someone who is just an ass?

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It is hard to see how the police could have seen that she was suicidal or otherwise mentally ill. On the other hand, her husband knew both (as the wife's attorney indicated by recalling his frantic calls to police, warning them she posed a danger to herself). I cannot see how anyone would think that he is not the responsible party, if we are to engage in this sort of useless assessment of postmortem blame.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

I tend to think that depriving a person of their liberty is a serious act, which entails complete responsibility on the part of the person making the arrest. You don't just get to say "that person is acting like a jerk, throw her in the pit," even if you're the government.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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They want to point fingers, they should go find a mirror.

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I, too, blame the mirror.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

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Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

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Your agenda caused you to miss poster's point: the family of the mentally ill individual ought not allow that individual to enter unescorted into situations that could cause the mental illness to come to the fore.

And yes, the government could quite easily write laws that would make this legally mandatory, rather than merely morally mandatory.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

The issue in this particular case is that it's not clear if the cops knew she was mentally ill. They detained her for being drunk and violent, and they can't be expected to either perform mental health assessments or read minds. How could they distinguish between her and someone who is just an ass?

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It is hard to see how the police could have seen that she was suicidal or otherwise mentally ill. On the other hand, her husband knew both (as the wife's attorney indicated by recalling his frantic calls to police, warning them she posed a danger to herself). I cannot see how anyone would think that he is not the responsible party, if we are to engage in this sort of useless assessment of postmortem blame.

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I'm sure we can blame the husband for some things. No problem. However, that doesn't absolve the cops -- if you're going to deprive someone of their liberty, you are by definition taking on responsibility for everything that happens to that person.

If this means that it becomes increasingly impractical to detain/arrest people for increasingly minor offenses, like making the wrong kind of joke at the airport, etc., then so be it. Depriving a person of their liberty is a serious act.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

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Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

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Your agenda caused you to miss poster's point: the family of the mentally ill individual ought not allow that individual to enter unescorted into situations that could cause the mental illness to come to the fore.

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Sorry to bump this old thread, but I missed this response.

Of course I agree with you that the family has a moral obligation to not let this person out on their own where they are in danger. That was not the point.

For the part quoted above, I was posting in response to the assertion that the police do not have responsibility for taking care of the mentally ill. However, the police are granted the right to detain the mentally ill, as defined by the law. In exchange they must take responsibility for them while in custody. As I've already said, in this particular case that doesn't apply because the police has no reasonable expectation that the person was mentally ill, and aren't equipped to do that kind of assessment. But that doesn't mean that in general police aren't responsible for taking care of the mentally ill that they detain "for the public own good".

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And yes, the government could quite easily write laws that would make this legally mandatory, rather than merely morally mandatory.

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Sure, but those would be in addition to the laws that say when the police find a mentally ill person out in public that they think is dangerous then they can detain them. When they do that, they must assume responsibility for them.

Re: Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility
 

it is clearly not the polices fault.

the police do have a responsibility to protect you from yourself once in their custody, in a sense. but they only have to do what a normal person would find reasonably necessary. if they heard her slamming her head into the door and let it go on, boo on them, but i'm guessing we can count on one hand the number of people who have strangled themselves with their own handcuffs.