Home Game - Argument gets started
 

So on a beautiful morning I decide to organise a home game with some of my closest friends. We set it up , some of us have been playing poker for some time now. There are 3 or 4 that have never played before. So we send them all the info a week before the game. We explain in detail. We play for an hour for no cash whatsoever.

One of my best friends brings along his wife. She has never played but the fact that there's money involved that she can get for free from other people , she starts liking the game.

After a couple of hours of play , me and the guys wife are the only ones left - having cleaned up the rest. She goes all-in , I call. I win everything.

Couple of days later the guy starts bugging me saying that upon review of the board and her and my hand , they are sure that it was a tie and not a win. According to me I clearly won with an ace high straight , while she had a king high straight.

He keeps on contesting and now asked me to pay her buyin for the next homegame ("because that would be only fair")

What the hell should I do .. it's a small price to pay to make this crap stop , but on the other hand I am pissed that this kind of thing even happens. Why can't she just realise she lost the game?

So my question is : is there a sort of poker etiquette that eventual hands can't be contested anymore after they have been played out ?

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

I'd never play again with anyone who would bug me like this.

Review of the board ? Is this a joke ? They'd better have looked closely at the board during the game.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Unless you had table cams on your game, that's it. You won the hand, the hand is over, the game's over. They need to get over it.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

I tried telling him , that for example in a tennis match , when a ball is out , you don't get to question the call 3 days later to say the ball really was in.

Let us say that I have now seen a friend in a whole new different light.
It's a shame.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

tell him you give his wife money all the time

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Do you remember what the board was? Do you remember what your cards were? Do you remember what her cards were?
Do you honestly think you won? It was down to heads-up with you and a newbie; were you the only two paying attention? Did others witness the hand?

This is a home game. Yes, there are rules that as soon as the pot is awarded the hand is dead, but these hard-lines get blurred in home games quite often. If you didn't honestly win the hand, just man up and pay the buy-in next time. The fact that you are even asking this question leads me to believe that you might know the hand was mis-read.

If you truly can't remember the hand (I'd find that hard to believe). If there were other witnesses, what do they remember? Since this is a group of close friends you should be able to easily find out what the others think of the hand at the next game.

What are the stakes we are talking here? How big do you play with close friends that have never played before?

The more I read of your post, the more questions I have. It seems to have a lot holes (maybe just your writing style) but without these answers, I'm getting the feeling that the things you aren't telling us are going to reveal the truth here.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

yeah i remember the board i had AKs and she pushed with KQo

board read TJQ9A giving me an ACE high straight and her only a KING high straight.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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yeah i remember the board i had AKs and she pushed with KQo

board read TJQ9A giving me an ACE high straight and her only a KING high straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was this a joke? Or is DJCoax your gimmick account for this question?

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

As far as I remember ..

On the board , there was a 9,10,Q,K and an A. Never mind the suits , there was no possibility for the flush.
So there IS a straight on the board.

I have A J
I think she had K K

I distinctly remember there being 3Ks at the end

She is not so sure of her hand anymore and the recent version is she thinks she had K J

Stakes are not that high. We're talking bout a 10$ buy-in so I would just pay up to get the nagging to stop.

This post was made because I wondered if there was some kind of unwritten code between poker players regarding to this type of argument.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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tell him you give his wife money all the time

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I wouldn't touch her with a stick even when they gave ME money !

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

I don't see a straight on that board. Since everyone (including yourself) seems to be confused about exactly what each player held and what was on the board I'd let this one go.

A decision was made when all this information was easily verifiable. Second guessing it now is just going to make things work.

Just explain it to your friend like that and move along.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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This post was made because I wondered if there was some kind of unwritten code between poker players regarding to this type of argument.

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Well the unwritten code is that once the hand is over and the next hand starts, the decision is final. Obviously, between friends, as Khabbi points out, this can be greyed.

However, a real poker player would never do this to another real poker player.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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On the board , there was a 9,10,Q,K and an A. Never mind the suits , there was no possibility for the flush.
So there IS a straight on the board.

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There is no straight on this board. Try remembering harder or we might start believing your friend.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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A decision was made when all this information was easily verifiable. Second guessing it now is just going to make things worse .

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FMP

I think at this point, you are all confused and should just trust that the proper decision was made when all the information was clearly in front of you.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Yes, obviously the hand is over and the payout stands.

Having said that, the same is true for a string raise, or folding your big blind when there's no raise. We let go of a lot for beginning players.

Solution is obvious. Split the money the way they want. Next time explain poker rules to them before you play. Assume they are either completely clueless and naive, or just naggy nitty people who might not be your friends for much longer. If that's what they're like, you can do better. Be polite, just don't have an evening of monopoly with them, or go to a restaurant where you need to split the bill.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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According to me I clearly won with an ace high straight , while she had a king high straight.

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[ QUOTE ]
As far as I remember ..

On the board , there was a 9,10,Q,K and an A. Never mind the suits , there was no possibility for the flush.
So there IS a straight on the board.

I have A J
I think she had K K

I distinctly remember there being 3Ks at the end

[/ QUOTE ]

...


I bet she really did have KJ and it should have been split. By the way, you contradict yourself a LOT.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I remember ..

On the board , there was a 9,10,Q,K and an A. Never mind the suits , there was no possibility for the flush.
So there IS a straight on the board.

I have A J
I think she had K K

I distinctly remember there being 3Ks at the end

She is not so sure of her hand anymore and the recent version is she thinks she had K J

Stakes are not that high. We're talking bout a 10$ buy-in so I would just pay up to get the nagging to stop.

This post was made because I wondered if there was some kind of unwritten code between poker players regarding to this type of argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally, unless you can be sure, the hand is over.

Given your lack of total recall, I'd pay the buy-in as a cheap alternative.

Be clear to the group in the future that day-after doesn't fly.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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Stakes are not that high. We're talking bout a 10$ buy-in so I would just pay up to get the nagging to stop.

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They are completely in the wrong and do not even have a leg to stand on.

If I felt merciful, I would turn the other cheek and pay them the $10 only after telling them the following:

"I'm sorry that you misunderstood things last week. In the future, if you think you won the pot, you need to speak up RIGHT AWAY, because after the hand is over and the cards are shuffled back into the deck, there is no way to tell who had what.

"Normally I would never, ever, under any circumstances return money after a game is finished. That is not how poker works. But because you guys are new and maybe didn't understand how the rules work, I'd be happy to give $10 to buy into the next game out of the goodness of my heart. I hope that you now realize how important it is to raise your objection right away, before the hand is over, because there is no other way we can run a poker game."

Depending on how nice they were the next time would depend on whether I ever invite them back again. But since the stakes are so low, you might consider bending the rules to maintain a friendly game. Don't let them think they are right and you are wrong, however, but be nice about it at the same time if you can.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Neuroman's approach is a fast way to kill your game before it starts.

Instead of giving money back, just buy beer and pizza and whiskey for next week. You were big winner anyway, and this will encourage future big winners to do the same. To start off the night, open up a beer and take it to your buddy's wife and toast to no hard feelings, but just let them know that such things need to be pointed out immediately, as when two memories collide there's no way to find the truth.

If someone wants to argue, don't do it at the game. Talk with them outside and away if you think it will help, otherwise table the discussion until another time, with the upset parties sitting out this week if need be.

Do not be defensive or argumentative. Agree with them that it's a murky situation and that it would suck if in fact she did have a split pot hand but nobody noticed it until way too late. Just reiiterate that there's no way to tell for sure, and you want to keep it fair, and that if the situation were reversed you'd want the decision to be the same.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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tell him you give his wife money all the time

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I could not stop laughing at this.

As far as buying the wife in next time, I most likely would if you wanted them to shut up and play again. If you don't care about the complaining or them playing in the future, then don't worry about it. Of course that's just what I would do.

Additionally, if I did spot her a buy-in I would make a comment that it was just to ensure that there was no bad blood. If you think the pot was pushed to you correctly, I wouldn't back down from that.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

the fact that they called you and tried to get the money back shows that they had an argument about it and see you in a different light now too.

IMHO, give her back the $10, and never invite them to play poker again, it's pretty simple. I've had similar situations in home games, if someone is going to get butthurt about a $10 buyin and protest it after the fact they're not the kind of people you want to gamble with. It doesn't mean you can't be friends, in fact I think doing this and never playing poker with them is about the only way to save the friendship.

This is a tough spot because to give the $10 back would be somewhat admitting that they are right, so what I would do is say listen, that's not how poker works, you can't protest a result days later, but since you are still learning and new to the game, here's your $10 back, and I'd prefer if you didn't bring the big bleeding vagina to future games.


It's sad and disgusting how money effects certain people, but that's reality. Some people just can't play poker for money without pulling something like this, or holding a grudge, or something worse like trying to cheat next time.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Argh, this thread put me on lifetilt both from the unbelievably lame friends and lying OP. Please ban both OP and his friends, I hate them all thx!

Oh yeah, give them the money back but don't invite them to any more games.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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This is a tough spot because to give the $10 back would be somewhat admitting that they are right, so what I would do is say listen, that's not how poker works, you can't protest a result days later, but since you are still learning and new to the game, here's your $10 back, and I'd prefer if you didn't bring the big bleeding vagina to future games.


It's sad and disgusting how money effects certain people, but that's reality. Some people just can't play poker for money without pulling something like this, or holding a grudge, or something worse like trying to cheat next time.

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Exactly my thoughts. By giving her the money back, you're basically saying that other people can try to pull of stuff like this in the future with you, or that you indead tried to steal the pot from her.

Also, I find it hard to believe that you can totally misread a hand like this in a heads-up situation. If you go all-in at any point before the river, you certainly know your odds and your outs, so you know what cards are good for win/loss/chop that can still come. If you had gone all-in at river - with in your case the nuts - she should be pretty foolish to "misread" her KK as KJ since any jack gives broadway. Maybe another example, like a chop pot with two pair and kicker on board, maybe, but not this...

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Your friend was new to poker from what you posted. I would say she doesn't understand the basises for the rules of poker. Take the time to explain hands can not be contested after they get mucked and certainly not a few days afterwards.

If she got second place then she did win some money didn't she?

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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Argh, this thread put me on lifetilt both from the unbelievably lame friends and lying OP. Please ban both OP and his friends, I hate them all thx!

Oh yeah, give them the money back but don't invite them to any more games.

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You call me a liar but I hopefully explained that I am NOT SURE as to what was on the table.
Anyway , there were 8 people evaluating the hand and they gave me the win. But nobody seems to remember (or doesnt want to "choose sides").

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Once the hand is over, it is over. Absolutely over, and that's the way poker is played for generations. That is the unwritten code.

If you friend continues to dispute this, he knows nothing about poker and don't invite him back. Also, show him this thread.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

maybe the board was 9 10 K Q K?

That would give her a king high straight whilst you had the nuts.

If this is the case, explain to her hand rankings more clearly, saying that whilst you both hand straights, your ace made you a higher straight ect ect.

If, however, this isn't the case and she did definately have KK in your recollection and thus didn't have a straight, and is in hindsight claiming KJ on a board that would give both you and her the nuts, just speak to a few of the people that were at the game. They should be able to verify the details.

If she is right (which is improbable), refund the buyin and apologize.

If she is wrong, refund buyin and don't play with them again. People have already mentioned the reasons.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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yeah i remember the board i had AKs and she pushed with KQo

board read TJQ9A giving me an ACE high straight and her only a KING high straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was this a joke? Or is DJCoax your gimmick account for this question?

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Looks to me like DJcoax as an account created by killsadie just for this story.

Can mods check IPs? One account per person here, correct?

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yeah i remember the board i had AKs and she pushed with KQo

board read TJQ9A giving me an ACE high straight and her only a KING high straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was this a joke? Or is DJCoax your gimmick account for this question?

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks to me like DJcoax as an account created by killsadie just for this story.

Can mods check IPs? One account per person here, correct?

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The way I read it I thought killsadie was just making a joke. Don't know that there's a rule about multiple accounts, not sure why it's a big deal, but I can confirm that DjCoax posted the same question on another forum with the name DjCoax and a 2 year+ posting history.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Why does anyone care if it's a gimmick account? Why would mod's check the IP, it's not like it actually matters.

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

Old established rule, appearing in print at least as late as 1950, when the pot has been collected it is over. Even if the pot was incorrectly given to someone. If it were a tie then they should have said so before the pot was collected.


Oh by the way, why play poker with friends when you could potentially lose them and there is a whole Internet full of strangers waiting to lose their money to you?

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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Oh by the way, why play poker with friends who you could potentially lose them and there is a whole Internet full of strangers waiting to lose their money to you?

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Why have friends who are so pathetic that they could be "lost" over a normal poker game result?

Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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I'd never play again with anyone who would bug me like this.

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Re: Home Game - Argument gets started
 

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Why does anyone care if it's a gimmick account? Why would mod's check the IP, it's not like it actually matters.

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I don't know. TwoPlusTwo has a single account per person rule. If you don't like the rules, I suppose that you can start your own poker forum. Was there a point that you were attempting to make? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]