Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

In a heads up pot, guy 1 checks the river. Guy 2 pauses then stacks all his chips up and slides them forward past his cards. They move past the cards and are still in his hand, and Guy 1 instantly calls. So guy 2 still has his hands on the chips and pulls them back, then says I check. They call the floor over for a decision. What should it be?

There is no betting line at this casino.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

As long as a player has not taken his hand off his chips or verbally declared, he has not completed his action. It is an angleshot but legal especially if there is not betting line.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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In a heads up pot, guy 1 checks the river. Guy 2 pauses then stacks all his chips up and slides them forward past his cards. They move past the cards and are still in his hand, and Guy 1 instantly calls. So guy 2 still has his hands on the chips and pulls them back, then says I check. They call the floor over for a decision. What should it be?

There is no betting line at this casino.

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Guy 1 should learn to wait until cards are completely released given we live in a world of angles.

That said Guy 2 "stacked all his chips" and slides them apparently in unison past his cards. I think his intention to bet all his chips has been made clear. I'd rule the bet stands.

Note that this isn't the same as a player palming a stack of twenty or so chips and cutting off let's say six for his lead bet. This method of betting has become commonplace in my area (LA) and therefore is accepted practice. Here the second player should wait to see how many chips are cut off before calling.

~ Rick

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

I can't imagine a floor in AC ruling this anything other than an all-in and call. Coming forward with his stack will do it... you can't just push forward your chips and then bring them back in (at least not where I've worked or played).

That said, it's unwise for the other player to act until he gets the all-in acknowledged from the dealer.

As far as people coming out with a stack and drop-cutting some amount, that's pretty common practice here too.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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I can't imagine a floor in AC ruling this anything other than an all-in and call.

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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

I would rule that he made a bet.

I think this is different than having chips in your hand and putting your hand out. These chips are on the felt and have moved into an area that is clearly intended as a bet.

A similar situation is when a player is contemplating a call of a river bet. If he pushes chips out and this causes the bettor to flip over his winning hand, then the action is considered a call.

See the parenthesis in this rule in Robert's:

13. A player who bets or calls by releasing chips into the pot is bound by that action and must make the amount of the wager correct. (This also applies right before the showdown when putting chips into the pot causes the opponent to show the winning hand before the full amount needed to call has been put into the pot.)

So anyways, if it's my cardroom it's a bet and if you don't like it, take your angleshooting ass and play somewhere else.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

I don't know why people automatically think it was an angle shoot because player 1 called prematurely. Player 2 may still be deciding how much to bet. Please re-read the statement above about rule 13 - I believe the rule says "releasing chips" which the player clearly did not do. If the bold part is supposed to mean something in this situation it doesn't. No opponent showed a winning hand while betting was taking place.

Now, player 1 knows exactly what he is doing in this situation. This is a play I use atleast once a session. Say I'm player 1 and check the river, as player 2 begins to put chips in the pot to bet I instantly say all in. Now player 2 doesn't know what to think and more times than not they fold. The difference between OP and my situation is the person had released some chips in my situation (stacking stacks of 5 trying to bet 15) thus allowing him to fold at around 10 chips and save the last 5 (because he hasn't released the 3rd stack of 5).

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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... Player 2 may still be deciding how much to bet. ...

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How could player 2 be doing anything but going all in? From the OP Player 2 stacked all of his chips and pushed (not picked up one stack, PUSHED) them forward, past his cards.

I don't care if Player 2 is connected to his chips by an umbilical cord. He's still gone all in. And he sure as H#(( can't check.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

It's an all in and a call.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

Player two is all in.

He stacked his chips, made a betting motion, moved his chips past his cards, and his chips are on the felt.

While player one should have waited a second or two, player 2s action is clear and he's all in.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.

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You may be thinking of chess rules here.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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I don't know why people automatically think it was an angle shoot because player 1 called prematurely. Player 2 may still be deciding how much to bet. Please re-read the statement above about rule 13 - I believe the rule says "releasing chips" which the player clearly did not do. If the bold part is supposed to mean something in this situation it doesn't. No opponent showed a winning hand while betting was taking place.

Now, player 1 knows exactly what he is doing in this situation. This is a play I use atleast once a session. Say I'm player 1 and check the river, as player 2 begins to put chips in the pot to bet I instantly say all in. Now player 2 doesn't know what to think and more times than not they fold. The difference between OP and my situation is the person had released some chips in my situation (stacking stacks of 5 trying to bet 15) thus allowing him to fold at around 10 chips and save the last 5 (because he hasn't released the 3rd stack of 5).

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Please don't come near me or play at my table.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.

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Because of the way the chips were assembled and pushed I think he's made a bet and would rule that way as mentioned elsewhere. But the posters here need to realize that a significant number of floor would rule the way you see it.

Two lessons here. One is don't count on decisions to go your way or the way you think is logical. Second is wait for the action to be completely clear before committing your own chips.

~ Rick

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

And if the action is not completely clear even after your opponent has acted, get the ruling in advance of yours.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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INow, player 1 knows exactly what he is doing in this situation. This is a play I use atleast once a session. Say I'm player 1 and check the river, as player 2 begins to put chips in the pot to bet I instantly say all in. Now player 2 doesn't know what to think and more times than not they fold. The difference between OP and my situation is the person had released some chips in my situation (stacking stacks of 5 trying to bet 15) thus allowing him to fold at around 10 chips and save the last 5 (because he hasn't released the 3rd stack of 5).

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Defense against your clear malicious angle is to put out chips (assuming you are betting part of your stack) all at once and be ready to think quickly when an angling opponent such as yourself says "allin". In other words think before you make the initial bet whether or not you are willing to play for all your chips against your type of angle shot and if so be ready to say "I call" real fast in response to your "allin". Most floor will rule action made and accepted.

~ Rick

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.

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You may be thinking of chess rules here.

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This is generally the rule in my room. If you have not brought your hand back you can still change your action, however the way that the chips were put together here and pushed out I would expect that a floor would rule this as an all in bet.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.

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He didn't grab a few chips, then move them forward. He stacked all his chips, then pushed them forward.

While some floors may allow him to take back his action, this should be a binding all in.

Are we really going to allow someone to push all the chips forward, keep a finger on each stack, gauge the opponents reaction, then take back parts of each stack, or pull them all back? I don't think so.

If simply taking your hands off your chips meant a bet, if I stack my chips close then take them off does this become an all in bet? No.

Pushing a stack of chips forward is a bet. Most places will allow you to lift a stack of chips forward, and those that leave your hand are the bet, but pushing them forward and then trying to take them back in usually not allowed.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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INow, player 1 knows exactly what he is doing in this situation. This is a play I use atleast once a session. Say I'm player 1 and check the river, as player 2 begins to put chips in the pot to bet I instantly say all in. Now player 2 doesn't know what to think and more times than not they fold. The difference between OP and my situation is the person had released some chips in my situation (stacking stacks of 5 trying to bet 15) thus allowing him to fold at around 10 chips and save the last 5 (because he hasn't released the 3rd stack of 5).

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Defense against your clear malicious angle is to put out chips (assuming you are betting part of your stack) all at once and be ready to think quickly when an angling opponent such as yourself says "allin". In other words think before you make the initial bet whether or not you are willing to play for all your chips against your type of angle shot and if so be ready to say "I call" real fast in response to your "allin". Most floor will rule action made and accepted.

~ Rick

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How is this a malicious angle? If I know somebody is making a stab at the pot on a bluff/middle-low pair. If I allow them to put the full bet of their intention out, they will then be pot committed to call if I raise all in. Now if I say all in immediately it obviously shows strength #1, and #2 it allows the person to re-think the situation as they are now playing for all their chips (or mine for that matter, but I don't do this unless I have a larger stack). Sometimes they look me up, but most of the time they fold. I'm just curious as to how that is a malicious angle? I see it as an awesome play.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.

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Maybe I should clarify this. When he moved his hand forward it did constitute a bet, just not an all in bet. He should have to atleast bet the minimum.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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How is this a malicious angle? If I know somebody is making a stab at the pot on a bluff/middle-low pair. If I allow them to put the full bet of their intention out, they will then be pot committed to call if I raise all in. Now if I say all in immediately it obviously shows strength #1, and #2 it allows the person to re-think the situation as they are now playing for all their chips (or mine for that matter, but I don't do this unless I have a larger stack). Sometimes they look me up, but most of the time they fold. I'm just curious as to how that is a malicious angle? I see it as an awesome play.

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OK. I'll take "malicious angle" back. And it's an awesome play if you are in fact not disputing your out of turn "allin" (i.e., claiming it as out of turn and thus not binding) in those cases where your opponent is in fact very strong when you are not and immediately says "call".

That kind of awesome play simply won't ever be part of my arsenal though.

~ Rick

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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How is this a malicious angle? If I know somebody is making a stab at the pot on a bluff/middle-low pair. If I allow them to put the full bet of their intention out, they will then be pot committed to call if I raise all in. Now if I say all in immediately it obviously shows strength #1, and #2 it allows the person to re-think the situation as they are now playing for all their chips (or mine for that matter, but I don't do this unless I have a larger stack). Sometimes they look me up, but most of the time they fold. I'm just curious as to how that is a malicious angle? I see it as an awesome play.

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OK. I'll take "malicious angle" back. And it's an awesome play if you are in fact not disputing your out of turn "allin" (i.e., claiming it as out of turn and thus not binding) in those cases where your opponent is in fact very strong when you are not and immediately says "call".

That kind of awesome play simply won't ever be part of my arsenal though.

~ Rick

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I would not try and dispute my verbal all in if he instacalled.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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no it is not clear that he is all in as his hand has not been removed from the chips. Until his hand is removed from the chips or he makes a verbal declaration he has not acted.

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You may be thinking of chess rules here.

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This is generally the rule in my room. If you have not brought your hand back you can still change your action, however the way that the chips were put together here and pushed out I would expect that a floor would rule this as an all in bet.

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I think this is close enough to consider the character of the players involved. In cases like this the floor needs to consider who is most likely to be shooting an angle here. I know there will be some here that want a hard and fast rule so I will direct them to this rule:
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8. The same action may have a different meaning, depending on who does it, so the possible intent of an offender will be taken into consideration. Some factors here are the person’s amount of poker experience and past record.

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Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

Ok, thanks for the help on the ruling, and I'm glad it has gotten some good discussion on this and similar situations.

Clarification on how the bet was made might help the ruling. Player 2 had his index finger in front of the base of the chipstack and his thumb behind. It wasn't being palmed or being pushed forward with his hands only behind it. Not sure if any matters though. I guess its just a /dealer/floor judgement here.

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

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Clarification on how the bet was made might help the ruling. Player 2 had his index finger in front of the base of the chipstack and his thumb behind. It wasn't being palmed or being pushed forward with his hands only behind it. Not sure if any matters though. I guess its just a /dealer/floor judgement here.

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I don't care if he has his tongue on it with his fingers crossed. He moved the chips in a forward motion past his cards. This should be his bet.

Last time he does this donkey [censored] again.

YMMV

Re: Floor Ruling on a player\'s action
 

I got a warning at FW for bringing chips forward past my cards and then saying check (the chips were entirely encompassed by my hand - i.e. no part of any chip was touching the felt). The dealer told me that if I bring chips in front of my cards it would be considered a bet the next time. Nobody asked the dealer to force my bet - and I won the hand after the river checked through.

In your case I would rule it a bet for the full amount of the chips pushed forward.

Probably the last time he tries to look for a tell in that manner.

idiotic racetrack rule
 

Ruling a bet all the chips in someone's hand is invoking the acetrack rule - a BAD rule and obviously not enforceable unless the rule exists in that room. If it does exist then it's a testament to the management's stupidity.