Future of sng\'s online?
 

hey guys,

I am currently deciding where to put my focus and energy on. I am debating between NL cash or SNG's + MTT's.

I have a roll of $2500. My goal is use poker as a part-time job for the next 1-5 years. My target income from this part-time gig is $2000-$5000/month.

Now, I still have lots of things to learn; be it NL cash and Sng's. The dillema I am in right now is: If i am going to put all my energy and effort, I want to choose a game has a better potential.

I used to specialize in limit sng's, however since the legislation happened, limit sng's has been near extinct.

I don't want for this to happen again as I put in alot of time and energy into mastering limit sng's.

So my concern is, will online sng's be profitable enough in the next few years for someone to earn up to 5k/month? I would hate to devote all this time and energy into learning SNG's, only to have the games dry up and having to start all over again by learning a new game like NL cash.

So...do you guys think it would be wiser to start from scratch and learn NL cash? or build on my SNG foundation?

What are pros and cons to SNGs' vs. NL Cash?

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

There are probably less than 10 ppl consistently making $5k/month at SNGs right now. Good luck.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

Why is that? Because the games are really dried up???

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

There's a profit ceiling, so the best and brightest move on to cash. (At least the ones who aren't crusty old dudes that don't like to learn new stuff. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

SNGs can only support so many good players at the higher buyins ($60-$100s). So marginal players tend to clog up the games, run bad, then move on to something else. Then the games get juicier, marginal players win some and start clogging up the games again... etc.

At the highest buyins, even the bad players generally don't give away a lot more ev than the rake. So the above-$100 pros are playing mostly for VPPs/rakeback - with some soul-shatteringly brutal swings.

Enjoy!

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

i think that in the future with out the uigea, and safe easy way to deposit, you will be able to 16 table the 60s for 15-20%, and i wouldnt be surprised if you would see ppl beating the 27s for 30%..

this is all just my opinion of course

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

I don't think you understand. It's not *that* hard to learn optimal strategy to beat the $60s/$27s, ESPECIALLY of you're talking optimal strategy while massively multi-tabling. And there are 100s of people out there in cash who know how to beat SNGs with their eyes closed. If it ever gets that juicy again, winning players will quickly fill in the gaps until the best possible ROI goes down.

Right now it appears the balancing point for this at the $60s is something like 10-12%. Although I'm not sure if that hasn't sunk lower for someone trying to play 5-6 days a week.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's a profit ceiling, so the best and brightest move on to cash. (At least the ones who aren't crusty old dudes that don't like to learn new stuff. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

SNGs can only support so many good players at the higher buyins ($60-$100s). So marginal players tend to clog up the games, run bad, then move on to something else. Then the games get juicier, marginal players win some and start clogging up the games again... etc.

At the highest buyins, even the bad players generally don't give away a lot more ev than the rake. So the above-$100 pros are playing mostly for VPPs/rakeback - with some soul-shatteringly brutal swings.

Enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

Suzzer you make me sad =(.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

so your saying that there are enough good players not playing sngs (who would come back to play them) to keep rois down should droves of terrible players reappear?

maybe, maybe not. if ps was all of a sudden advertising play for real money, safe, and legal and one click transfers on prime time comercials....

i think roi's would skyrocket. you might start seeing 250k ppl on stars everynight

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

Yeah but there are droves of guys like me out there who are struggling to learn cash games who would quickly make the switch back and 25 table softer games.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

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Yeah but there are droves of guys like me out there who are struggling to learn cash games who would quickly make the switch back and 25 table softer games.

[/ QUOTE ]

My evil plan is to suggest everyone that there is no money in sngs and make them switch to cash so I can hog all the profits. Is that what your doing Suzzer [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]?

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

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There are probably less than 10 ppl consistently making $5k/month at SNGs right now. Good luck.

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Less than 10??? This can't be right. I'm gonna come close to that number and I'm only 8 tabling the 60s.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

slimon, I'm not painting a rosy picture. But few of the high-stakes guys, even the ones in cash now would argue. Why do you think they went to cash? Seriously get Gramps or bigjoe or some of those guys to chime in. See what they say. We've had these discussions in the past several times. Most of the people involved in them are playing cash now.

Mattey, 10 might be a little low. Maybe 20-ish. Also let me know when you've averaged $5k over 12 months. I averaged about that for 6 months, then about $2k for 3 months, then lost $10k. When you play that much, the regs tend to start calling you a lot. Splitting between buyins or sites helps diminish this effect.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

But if the fish do come back in mass, wont they also make the cash games juicier?
To the OP, I would focus on cash games but I do think that SNG roi's would increase a fair amount if the US market opens up again.
Im still playing SNG's because I started playing them sometime ago and I dont think I have mastered them yet. Having a full time job and a wife and kid at home limit the hours you can play/study.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think that in the future with out the uigea, and safe easy way to deposit, you will be able to 16 table the 60s for 15-20%, and i wouldnt be surprised if you would see ppl beating the 27s for 30%..

this is all just my opinion of course

[/ QUOTE ]

this is just crazy thinking. at best expect a slight bump in the numbers posted in the FAQ, and don't expect to maintain them 16-tabling

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

If in 12 months I'm still grinding sngs b/c its the most profitable game for me, I may as well quit poker forever.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

The best route is to play the version of poker that best suits your personality. In the peak of sngs it was possible to make 100k per month in sngs on party. 10k a month was relatively ez for the better sng players on party, 2-5k was attainable by the top 30% or so (just my est. based on # played and stakes). The same is possible if the landscape changes.

The majority of the people from this forum who made 10-100k a month mostly moved to NL cash (mostly 6 max or hu). Its pretty easy to gauge the graphs in the monthly results threads to see who is making more $ on a consistent basis the past 6 months or more.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

There is no chance of sustaining that kind of return in sngs/mtts on a $2500 roll on a parttime schedule.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
slimon, I'm not painting a rosy picture. But few of the high-stakes guys, even the ones in cash now would argue. Why do you think they went to cash? Seriously get Gramps or bigjoe or some of those guys to chime in. See what they say. We've had these discussions in the past several times. Most of the people involved in them are playing cash now.

Mattey, 10 might be a little low. Maybe 20-ish. Also let me know when you've averaged $5k over 12 months. I averaged about that for 6 months, then about $2k for 3 months, then lost $10k. When you play that much, the regs tend to start calling you a lot. Splitting between buyins or sites helps diminish this effect.

[/ QUOTE ]

SNG "pros" are extremely lazy these days. If they played as much as they should, they'd be fine. Having said that, if you're good and have a roll, cash is the place to be right now.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

It is just too easy to learn how to play SNG's online and someone who studies them seriously for a few months is usually going to be like 90% as good as the best SNG player ever. Also they are very easy to 16+ table and still play about as well as you would playing one or two. So the games are really bad once you get past like $20 buyins or so. Finally it is often hard to get higher stakes games going on sites that don't have a lot of regs b/c fish don't like to wait to start a SNG. In fact unless you find great games somewhere on some euro site the maximum EV/sng attainable at any stakes is probably only like 3 times higher than that of the 20-27's and the variance/roll req of playing at those stakes is easily 10 or even 20 times higher.
Still I think they are probably better than cash EV wise if you have a medium sized roll of like 2 to 10k. But I would work on your cash/MTT game or even something like limit at the same time.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

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There are probably less than 10 ppl consistently making $5k/month at SNGs right now. Good luck.

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Your saying this like its impossible. Have a 15% roi at the 27s, play ten at a time and 30 hours and week and earn 5k a month..

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are probably less than 10 ppl consistently making $5k/month at SNGs right now. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your saying this like its impossible. Have a 15% roi at the 27s, play ten at a time and 30 hours and week and earn 5k a month..

[/ QUOTE ]

You make it seem like it's so easy getting 15% roi at the 27's 10 tabling long term. I think you have to be pretty damn good to get 15% roi over 4k+ games or so.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

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When you play that much, the regs tend to start calling you a lot.

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This is a huge problem for me right now as I feel like I am getting called so much lighter the more often I play on FTP. It's a lot of average players (not 2+2 who have watched a video or two of mine) that have seen me shove bvb ATC a few too many times. I guess one way to get around that is multiaccount/change sites.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

ZOMG SNGS ARE SO [censored] HARD UR SO RIGHT.

like sometimes u have to fold, and um sometimes u have to go "all in"

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

Wow I just noticed the part time thing. Yeah I'm gonna say not too many making that much part time.

Although... since I got a job 6 months I've basically averaged about $1k on the weekends I've played = about 100 SNGs. With generally $1k-$2k in my online roll (I keep withdrawing as I never want to lose more than a few $K w/o being forced to take a break - and I still owe $14k in credit cards.)

So there's some happy news for you guys. I do think I've run very well on the whole though. I've had all my money in play maybe 15 times and only bustoed twice. Both of those times I borrowed a few hundred, bounced back immediately, and then ran real well.

See all you have to do is get me bragging, and I'll turn positive. SNGs are free money, EVERYONE get on board!

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When you play that much, the regs tend to start calling you a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge problem for me right now as I feel like I am getting called so much lighter the more often I play on FTP. It's a lot of average players (not 2+2 who have watched a video or two of mine) that have seen me shove bvb ATC a few too many times. I guess one way to get around that is multiaccount/change sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha!

I was getting called by T8s and [censored]. Very painful.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

LOL PARANOIA!!!!

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

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and I still owe $14k in credit cards.

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WTF??? pay it off first!

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's a profit ceiling, so the best and brightest move on to cash. (At least the ones who aren't crusty old dudes that don't like to learn new stuff. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

SNGs can only support so many good players at the higher buyins ($60-$100s). So marginal players tend to clog up the games, run bad, then move on to something else. Then the games get juicier, marginal players win some and start clogging up the games again... etc.

At the highest buyins, even the bad players generally don't give away a lot more ev than the rake. So the above-$100 pros are playing mostly for VPPs/rakeback - with some soul-shatteringly brutal swings.

Enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're really exaggerating. Good above $100 pros are playing for far more than rakenback. Also, 10 people making $5K/month of SNGs? I hope you were kidding. For one, every single person on the Sharkscope CardPlayer 07 Any Stakes leaderboard is making >$5K/month before rakeback. There's plenty of people making more than $5K per month of SNGs.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

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In the peak of sngs it was possible to make 100k per month in sngs on party.

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r u fkn srs? Someone give me a time machine, ill grind 6 months straight, put it all in stocks, and be set for life

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

I'm pretty sure it's a typo and he meant 100k/yr.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure it's a typo and he meant 100k/yr.

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Actually I think he meant per month. I could see this being possible with rakeback on Party considering you could probably sustain a 10% ROI at $500s back in the day. I didn't play all that much on Party though so I don't know how much the high stakes games ran.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

He means per month. Hell when I used to 8-table the $215s for 3-4 hours a day, part-time, I managed over $20k a month and I wasn't even that good.

As for spite-calling, that's ALWAYS been evident and used to happen to me all the time too. It's quite simple really, you just reduce your pushing range, or in other words, adapt.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

lots of good input guys.

I am thinking of playing the 33's on a $2500 roll. You guys think its possible to obtain a 10% ROI 4 to 6 tabling for adecent ( grade: B-,B) player? Is 10% too ambitious?

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[quote

As for spite-calling, that's ALWAYS been evident and used to happen to me all the time too. It's quite simple really, you just reduce your pushing range, or in other words, adapt.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

please allow me to chime in [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I think there are lots of overrated SNGers from the party days who simply havent adjusted well to the change of the games. Suzzer speaks like one of those people (though i have no clue if he is...). I personally feel like the games havent gotten any tougher since one year ago (beginning of UIGEA) and they might even have gotten slightly softer...?

10% at the 33s are you speaking of turbo or regular? regular 10% is definitely achievable. If turbo, then its only achievable by the better players, but with just 4 tables shouldnt be out of reach. Remember roi alone means little....how many tables you have going is a HUGE factor.

Thirdly. If your not great at either game i would DEFINITELY say to learn cash instead. Theres way more money to be made, way more games to be played, far more freedom in terms of starting and stopping sessions, less annoyance if your connection [censored] up, etc etc. Cash is the way to go ESP for part timers. Its a quadruple win situation.

The only reason i still do sngs is that im slightly good at them now, and im making a good monthly clip (lol at 5-10 players averaging 5k/mth...) and i REALLY dont feel like starting over and sucking for 3-6 months before i match my current hourly rate. Im not in school anymore and have to pay for my life. Although one of these days im gonna have to suck it up and learn cash properly.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

The thing that really scares me are the top 10 money winners at the last 12 months (36-100, holdem 9-10 seated)on sharkscope. These guys are making between 23k and 37k/year. That gives less then 3k/month.

This number really sucks, considering these guys are probably the best/more hardworking at their level.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The thing that really scares me are the top 10 money winners at the last 12 months (36-100, holdem 9-10 seated)on sharkscope. These guys are making between 23k and 37k/year. That gives less then 3k/month.

This number really sucks, considering these guys are probably the best/more hardworking at their level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those leaderboards dont say everything. A lot of those guys play several different limits, so thats not their whole profit. And guys also play different sites from time to time also 'masking' some of their total profit. Lastly, your not considering rakeback/bonuses which for high volume, higher limit players adds up to another 25-50k yearly.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

Also most, if not all of those guys have other sources of income outside of poker. You can't 16 table sngs for 40 hours a week. Well you can but you should probably seek some help.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's a profit ceiling, so the best and brightest move on to cash. (At least the ones who aren't crusty old dudes that don't like to learn new stuff. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

SNGs can only support so many good players at the higher buyins ($60-$100s). So marginal players tend to clog up the games, run bad, then move on to something else. Then the games get juicier, marginal players win some and start clogging up the games again... etc.

At the highest buyins, even the bad players generally don't give away a lot more ev than the rake. So the above-$100 pros are playing mostly for VPPs/rakeback - with some soul-shatteringly brutal swings.

Enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're really exaggerating. Good above $100 pros are playing for far more than rakenback. Also, 10 people making $5K/month of SNGs? I hope you were kidding. For one, every single person on the Sharkscope CardPlayer 07 Any Stakes leaderboard is making >$5K/month before rakeback. There's plenty of people making more than $5K per month of SNGs.

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Yeah, I'll put my roll on the over of that number. A breakeven pro at the 100+ Sng's will make that in bonus and rakeback.

Re: Future of sng\'s online?
 

im in the same boat as the OP except i am currently living in the UK and will be for a few more years, since i can play anywhere i want would sngs/MTTs be better than cash? im already average at sngs/MTTs but below average at cash and cash even tends to get under my skin at times