50% of folding is discipline
Hi everyone,
Discipline is the key to poker. The main areas for the novice to focus on are not overplaying AK, timing tells and making sure your fancy plays are consistent with your metagame. I tell my students all the time: Discipline is like carrying figs for a baby over a mountain. Here is a hand of which I am not particularly proud, but maybe you can learn from my mistakes. Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter) SB: $441.60 BB: $994.00 UTG: $435.70 MP: $412.00 CO: $713.50 Hero (BTN): $400.00 <font color="blue">Well, I'm not doing very well at this table after about half an hour of play. I've gotten stacked more times than I can count after my draws keep missing. And to top off this debacle, I accidentally rebought full after getting stacked on the previous hand. One of the reasons I really should leave is that I am not the best player at the table. MP is an excellent player who I've been trying to avoid. Any time someone is laggier than you are, it's a good idea to leave the table. MP is running at 72/10/2 and is giving me fits. I'm mainly staying around for the other 4 players who are typical nits running at 22/18/4. So, at the time I though it a good idea to stick around a few more orbits and see if I can outplay the nits postflop. But, I end up in a big hand with the good player.</font> Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players) UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $8.00</font>, CO folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $16.00</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $24.00</font>, Hero calls $8.00. <font color="blue">OK, a little explanation is due here because this is unconventional and tricky. The first raise looks like a minraise, but it's not! A minraise would actually be to $12. By doubling his raise amount I hopefully deceive him into thinking I just minraised for isolation and I eke out some extra value. After he 4-bets me, I have to put on the brakes. NLHE is a postflop game. What if the flop comes all hearts? That would be bad for me. So let's see a flop before committing any more chips. </font> Flop: ($54) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players) <font color="red">MP bets $10.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $200.00</font>, MP calls $190.00. <font color="blue">That's a decent flop for our hand. The novice player almost always calls or raises smaller here. This is likely a leak. When he bets out, I put him on QTo. So, I want to put out a bluff-sized raise inducing him to push. He just calls, so I don't think he has QTo any more. Good players throw me off my game and that effects my hand reading skills. </font> Turn: ($454) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players) MP checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $80</font>, MP calls $80. <font color="blue">I throw out a blocker on the turn looking to get a free showdown. When a good player check calls the turn in a huge pot, this is a classic trap spot. I Mask with an Under Turn Bet. He calls. We need to be very aware of our image and our metagame here to make a good river decision. </font> River: ($614) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players) <font color="red">MP bets $20.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $45.00</font>, <font color="red">MP raises to $108.00 (all-in)</font>, Hero folds. <font color="blue">Well, that's the worst card in the deck for us. It turned our 2nd nuts into the 3rd nuts. MP makes a deceptive bet on the river. Is he just trying to get to showdown or is he trying to induce action? I raise to find out. I think this is a standard raise for info spot. He pushes and now my hand is likely mush on the end. Most amateurs say, I got AA, I got a full house. But, on that board, given that action, given our reads, given MP is an advanced player, given our metagame, given we've played our hand face up...a disciplined player will fold on the end. </font> MP didn't show but I'm sure he had quads or the straight flush on the end enough for a fold here to be +EV. I really should have called his $20 river bet to get to showdown but good players will fluster you into making mistakes. I should have left the table before this hand even happened and I consider that a lesson learned. That's all for now and we'll see you at the tables. joy |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
Awesome.
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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Discipline is like carrying figs for a baby over a mountain. [/ QUOTE ] Exactly what I've felt all along. I just didn't know how to put it into words |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
basically all you beat is a bluff
nice fold |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
[x] Hero accidentally bought in full |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
arg i know this is a joke but that fold stil tilts me...!!!
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
great read to bad you just found out on the river you where beat, but i totally get the point your trying to make here.
"when you know you are beat find the discipline to fold" i still find myself having trouble folding a hand like this to a 60$ bet with 650$ in the pot. How did you make it to the level of metagame to just be so confident of your read you can make a worldclass laydown like this? A fold like this deserves great respect Joy!!! |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
damn, hellmuth couldn't even lay that down.
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
This is OBV. a Joke.
How could he have a straight flush? He re raised. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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Preflop: Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players) <font color="blue"> Let's see a flop before committing any more chips. </font> [/ QUOTE ] Nice. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
Agreed, discipline is likely one of the most important aspects of poker.
I'm glad you finally realized to fold that hand. Likely, you should have known something was up when you were reraised preflop. I have it on good authority that when you are reraised, you most likely have the weaker hand as was demonstrated from the flop on and then his trapping of you on the turn. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
Thougt spot. I'd probably fold too.
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
lololololololololol
[ QUOTE ] Well, that's the worst card in the deck for us. It turned our 2nd nuts into the 3rd nuts. [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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This is OBV. a Joke. How could he have a straight flush? He re raised. [/ QUOTE ] This is what i was wondering, quads i could understand. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
i read the whole thing like 6 times and i give up....what's the other 50%?
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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i read the whole thing like 6 times and i give up....what's the other 50%? [/ QUOTE ] tight reads? |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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i read the whole thing like 6 times and i give up....what's the other 50%? [/ QUOTE ] Krantz: I usually don't give my competition advice but I have alot of respect for your game and your coaching skills and hope to one day play and coach at your level. I intentionally left out the other 50% from my post. Elite players like keikiwai and lobster probably read between the lines and understood right away. I follow the adage, if you teach a man to fish he eats for a day, if you give a man a fish, you are what you eat. That wisdom has gotten me far in life and at the poker tables. joy |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
u are my fav, please post more
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
[x] like carrying figs for a baby over a mountain
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
I understand your reasoning but i still think you are ahead here often enough to warrant a call.
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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[ QUOTE ] i read the whole thing like 6 times and i give up....what's the other 50%? [/ QUOTE ] Krantz: [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] JKratzer not KRANTZ [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
Yes! He's is back!
It's been a while and I was seriously considering opening a thread asking for a new post from joyofpoker. Now I don't have to [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
One thing though
[ QUOTE ] River: ($614) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players) <font color="blue">Well, that's the worst card in the deck for us. It turned our 2nd nuts into the 3rd nuts. </font> [/ QUOTE ] Although I see that the 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is a very scary card, I think we can still be glad. What if the 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] fell instead? That would have turned our 2nd nuts into the 44th nuts! What would you have done then if villain put himself to a decision for all his chips? Another question: say if we hit our 1-outer on the river with the A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], the prettiest card in the deck, would you still consider folding to be consistent with your metagame? Hoping to learn, Rainclouds |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i read the whole thing like 6 times and i give up....what's the other 50%? [/ QUOTE ] Krantz: [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] JKratzer not KRANTZ [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I just lol'ed really hard at this too. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
Nice fold. I always get carried away with hands like this and end up loosing money. I being able to fold in spots like this is what what separates the good from the expert player at those levels.
Also, would it ever be correct to just call villains initial pf raise of 8$, since we have position and he`s a 72/10/2. It`s always scary to build a big pot there, and we can control the size of the pot better. Would like to hear your opinion on this. the clęaner |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
12.5 to 1 pot odds....
It's worth a little pain to call isn't it? If you were concerned about the river card, why raise? |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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12.5 to 1 pot odds.... It's worth a little pain to call isn't it? If you were concerned about the river card, why raise? [/ QUOTE ] WTF?? Didn't you read the OP? This is an obvious information raise. OP, it's possible villain recognized that this was an information raise, maybe he was bluff raising you on the end since he read your weakness. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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12.5 to 1 pot odds.... It's worth a little pain to call isn't it? If you were concerned about the river card, why raise? [/ QUOTE ] Not just any raise: a minraise for value, and so that when the reraise came he knew he was beat and just saved money. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
I love you OP. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
i was actually expecting 88 and was tempted to scroll straight to bottom to see answer. BUT, i stayed focus and read the whole thing without cheating.
amazing ending, finally.! |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
Another good advice for your metagame:
Fold Aces prefold. Your opponents will never expect that. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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if you teach a man to fish he eats for a day, if you give a man a fish, you are what you eat. [/ QUOTE ] lolololol missed this the first time around |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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lololololololololol [ QUOTE ] Well, that's the worst card in the deck for us. It turned our 2nd nuts into the 3rd nuts. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] ..... ? |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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I follow the adage, if you teach a man to fish he eats for a day, if you give a man a fish, you are what you eat. [/ QUOTE ] |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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Thougt spot. I'd probably fold too. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, everyone says they can fold these in the cold light of day, but in the heat of the moment? OP and Daniel Negreanu probably the only two people on the planet good enough to make this lay down. |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
God is good.
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
ROFL OMG!!! I'm so baked, I read that whole thing, & I was absolutely incredulous! Till I started reading the responses & realized it was a level... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
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Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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ROFL OMG!!! I'm so baked, I read that whole thing, & I was absolutely incredulous! Till I started reading the responses & realized it was a level... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] you are not supposed to admit that |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
[x] POTY nominee
[x] OP adept in the art of the multilevel-level [x] laughed, cried, forwarded to friends [x] "above the rim" fold |
Re: 50% of folding is discipline
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[ QUOTE ] This is OBV. a Joke. How could he have a straight flush? He re raised. [/ QUOTE ] This is what i was wondering, quads i could understand. [/ QUOTE ] I think you two are on to something here. Now I'm starting to question the probability of the villian holding the straight flush myself.... |
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