WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

WCOOP ME
Blinds 400/800/50.

UTG+1 limps, hero limp MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] villain limps from CO, SB, BB completes.

5 players Pot 4450.

Flop 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG+1 bets 800, Hero raise to 3800. (Hero 55K), villain (41K) smooth calls. All others fold.

2 players, pot 12850.

Turn A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bet 5500, villain calls.

2 players Pot 23850.

River 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero???

(villain has 32K behind)

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

My Level 0/1 thinking is "Villian has a hand now or won't put anything else in the pot anyways." I value bet 15-18K and insta-call his push. If he has AA/JJ then "NH, sir"

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

I'm cramming here because he doesn't fold an 8 or a flush.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he has AA/JJ then "NH, sir"

[/ QUOTE ]

He limps pf...

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he has AA/JJ then "NH, sir"

[/ QUOTE ]

He limps pf...

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah...and? doesn't rule those 2 hands out

bombing river would be nice

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

LOL if you have never limped AA or JJ. I don't do it often, but villian had position on all but the button, so IF he were to limp a monster, that's a pretty good spot. After the flop, he keeps calling. That's why I bet the river. If he's a w/t donk, then he *may* call 50% of his stack. If he has a made hand, 15-18K sets up the obv. push from villian. Either way, value bet the riv.

Oh, and if you think a push is more likely to be called than a value bet, then by all means push.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

AA, JJ is def. not in his raise after Hero limps I think anyone with position raise AA, JJ every time here.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

Let's put AA/JJ on the side.


[ QUOTE ]

Oh, and if you think a push is more likely to be called than a value bet, then by all means push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point.

No matter what, I'm not folding.
So, the question is how to extract the most from all his ranges.... this includes
1. shove of a flush/smaller boat, and
2. bluff from weaker hands, and
3. call from weaker hands....
4. any unexplained retard plays.... (or villain's misread of our hand)

what's the best river decision???

Deep stack post-flop poker is fun!

Edit: when villain moved to the table, I found out from pokerdb, he finished 2nd in one of Sep's Sunday millions.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
but villian had position on all but the button, so IF he were to limp a monster, that's pretty much the worst spot in the history of bad spots .

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

highly unlikely villain has a flush esp if he's a decent player, why would he call after an utg+1 bet and a raise by you on a paired board with only a flush draw... i suppose you could give him the t9hh or the nut flush draw but i think its far more likely that he has an 8 and is trying not to get too crazy with it. I doubt he'll be that scared of the flush but it is one more hand that he probably can't beat since i'm guessing he has something like 78/89/t8s. I would bet 15k and hope for a call, but i wouldn't expect him to push.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

( At the river, villain has 32K behind)

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

Yeah, OK. I'm at work on a boring day amd didn't think this one through. The few times I have actually limped AA live was when I was 90+% sure I'd get raised. LP does suck for that.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

I shove river

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I shove river

[/ QUOTE ]

HIGH FIVE.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
I shove river

[/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Why?

(what you put him on?)

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

How can this thread go so long without anyone pointing out how bad the turn bet is? If you bet 9k than stacks are perfect for shoving river now you are in an awkward spot where you need to shove 1.5x pot and your hand looks so much stronger.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I shove river

[/ QUOTE ]

HIGH FIVE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can this thread go so long without anyone pointing out how bad the turn bet is?

[/ QUOTE ]


I like to hear more about this from others....

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I shove river

[/ QUOTE ]

HIGH FIVE.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

ONE HAND HIGH FIVE.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

Yeah, I didn't look at turn bet size but for sure you need to bet more on the turn to make him shove his 8 right then. Build that pot.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
How can this thread go so long without anyone pointing out how bad the turn bet is? If you bet 9k than stacks are perfect for shoving river now you are in an awkward spot where you need to shove 1.5x pot and your hand looks so much stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

are we going to lose him on the turn? villain is the same guy played with me early in Q7 hand I posted today (in second page), this is the second hand we played. I think first hand affected his decision on the second hand.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I shove river

[/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Why?

(what you put him on?)

[/ QUOTE ]

A flush, an 8 seem very likely. In fact, he has a flush a lot here.

He could just be a clown and show up with something random, but hes not folding a flush or an 8.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

I agree with everyone else, 8500 on turn ship river.. still ship river. hiV's all around pats on back for many let's smoke cigars

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I shove river

[/ QUOTE ] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Why?

(what you put him on?)

[/ QUOTE ]

A flush, an 8 seem very likely. In fact, he has a flush a lot here.

He could just be a clown and show up with something random, but hes not folding a flush or an 8.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assume he has a flush draw, given he's a decent player (2nd place of large online tourney for $250K), how likely he would stay with us for 8k+ on the turn if he has flush draw with no pair (KhTh for example)?

On the other hand, we bet 5.5K at the turn offering a good odd for a draw, if he made his hand at the river, how likely he's not moving in the rest there?

My point is, turn/river is a combination bet given his stack and range. We don't want him lose at the turn, and also give him room to bluff or value shove river. This defines turn bet size.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

Given the fact, this is the second hand I played post flop after the first Qs7s hand... does it make difference in our turn/river decision?

Anyone thinks checking the river is better than shove/bet?

Edit: I posted Q7 hand's result in the other thread, from that hand's result, you can see the dynamic between me and villain. here is the Q7 result, again,
http://www.pokerxfactor.com/servlet/...p;handid=87910

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

holy sweet merciful christ i detract all statements from thsi thread since i read it 2 times to start with, wrote a reply, read replies to my reply, reread hand another 4 times then realized that villain was not utg+1.

i are retarded, carry on.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
holy sweet merciful christ i detract all statements from thsi thread since i read it 2 times to start with, wrote a reply, read replies to my reply, reread hand another 4 times then realized that villain was not utg+1.

i are retarded, carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are retarded. It's a shame that you still can't read it right after 4 times.

(villain limps from CO)

PS: My English is bad, but you can always reply to me in Chinese.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
WCOOP ME
Blinds 400/800/50.

UTG+1 limps, hero limp MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] villain limps from CO, SB, BB completes.

5 players Pot 4450.

Flop 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG+1 bets 800, Hero raise to 3800. (Hero 55K), villain (41K) smooth calls. All others fold.

2 players, pot 12850.

Turn A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bet 5500, villain calls.

2 players Pot 23850.

River 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero???

(villain has 32K behind)

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is how the hand played out:

I bet 9000 at the river hoping flush would shove,weaker hand would call. Villain paused a few seconds and called with J9o . I wasn't sure 9K river bet was best play or not.

Given the last hand I played with him (he bluffed me with 22 when I had trip Queens at the river), I believed if I check the river here I would have induced his all-in bet.

I think betting 8K at the turn and shove the river would have lost him.

http://www.pokerxfactor.com/SH87908/...0071003_162647

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Given the last hand I played with him (he bluffed me with 22 when I had trip Queens at the river), I believed if I check the river here I would have induced his all-in bet.



[/ QUOTE ]

Given the fact that you called in previous hand, don't you think he's less likely to bluff shove the river?

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

Not betting more on the turn is a big mistake IMHO. Whether he is drawing for the flush (maybe he hit an ace now too) or calling a weaker 8, if he's going to stay he will definitely be willing to pay more, the way it is played. The smaller bet you made does v little to his range (perhaps an exception will be that you won't fold T9 that is not Th9h. not even sure about that), only keeps the pot smaller than it could be.

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not betting more on the turn is a big mistake IMHO. Whether he is drawing for the flush (maybe he hit an ace now too) or calling a weaker 8, if he's going to stay he will definitely be willing to pay more, the way it is played.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thinking.

My only question is, assume we bet 8-10K on the turn, will we be able to extract more from the river if he doesn't make his hand there?

Underbet looks weak, plus side is inducing bluff?

Edit: Is this line better than the one I used?

Bet 8-9k on the turn and check the river?

Re: WCOOP ME - Boat\'s sailing on flush river. check or bet???
 

He very unlikely holds JJ AA because of the pf limp, and since you pretty much got nuts, and he most likely flushed on the river or holds a strong ace/ an 8, a good bet size would be.. around half Pot Size right here, no check for me..