Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

The game is 5/10 NL at foxwoods. The two opponents who saw the flop with me each have between $2,000 and $3,000, and I have both of them covered.

From early position, I open for $60 with AcKc. Mid-position guy calls (he is a reasonably intelligent lag, and BB calls (he just likes to see lots of flops).

Flop is Ad 6s 9s.

BB checks, I lead for $200, mid-position raises to $600, and BB folds. So it's back to me.

What are we doing, and why?


TK

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

All-in. Get rid of flush draws, get called by A,Q. He is not that deep anyway.

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

[ QUOTE ]
All-in. Get rid of flush draws, get called by A,Q. He is not that deep anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

what? not sure your reasoning makes a lot of sense. you want to push so that you only get called by AQ (and AK)?

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

My standard line if I only had 100BB's would be to call his flop raise, then check raise the turn all in if it blanks (i.e. neither the straight or flush draws complete)... This deep it's a little bit more difficult.

His most likely range is basically a straight draw, flush draw, combo draw, AQ, AK, A9, A6, 99, 66 and air. Combo draws include a flush draw with a gutshot as well as the open ended staight and flush draw, plus AsXs hands...

I don't know enough about this player to know whether A6s and A9s make up much of his range.

So essentially I think I would call the flop, check raise the turn and call if he shoves.

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

whats villians stack, its a pretty big diff if he has 2k or 3k.

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

what? not sure your reasoning makes a lot of sense. you want to push so that you only get called by AQ (and AK)?

[/ QUOTE ]

You think he is going to continue with a,rag if you flat call 600, when he only has 1400 behind?

I think the best value is in pushing here.

regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

To start this hand, villain had about $2,600.

When I said villain is a reasonably intelligent lag, I meant to imply that almost any ace (especially if it's suited), and any pair is well within the range with which he will call preflop raises. So, in my mind, the chances of his having two pair, combo draw, or set are rather good.

Also, he is the type who would fire again if we call the raise and then check the turn.

Does this help?


TK

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

how come you opened to 6 blinds and then overpotted the flop, especially not knowing what to do if you get raised?

edit: I've played the 5-10NL at the wood several times, haven't seen someone open so big. Are you a regular?

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

[ QUOTE ]
how come you opened to 6 blinds and then overpotted the flop, especially not knowing what to do if you get raised?

edit: I've played the 5-10NL at the wood several times, haven't seen someone open so big. Are you a regular?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe he likes to play big pots!

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

I am a regular in the 5/10 game at foxwoods.

Lately, the game has been playing larger for opening raises and post-flop bets. In this game, $60 from early position was definitely not an abnormal raise, and a slight overbet on the flop OOP also was not so unusual.

I never said I did not know what to do when I got raised -- in fact, I took my action fairly quickly -- I made this post because I am curious as to how others would have handled the situation.


TK

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

im folding this

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

[ QUOTE ]
All-in. Get rid of flush draws, get called by A,Q. He is not that deep anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

mods pls set an example and start banning people wholesale...

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

Tk,

fair nuff. Didn't mean to imply you play bad, and clearly I'm not aware of the current game dynamic. With regards to what others think you might do here, it seems like your decision is very weighted on game flow and image, of which we are not easily able to understand as well as you, and therefore can't make a great analysis besides everyone's usual one word post. If I decide to continue with the hand, I'd call and c/r all-in on a non-draw hitting turn since you say he is very likely to fire twice. I don't think sticking it in on the flop is neither good nor bad, since I don't know what villain will think of it.

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

he know what you have and 'intelligent lags' people dont try to get people to fold TPTK in live games

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

[ QUOTE ]
he know what you very likely have and 'intelligent lags' people dont try to get people to fold TPTK in live games

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

nope, he knows EXACTLY !

Re: regarding villain\'s stack size and tendencies....
 

[ QUOTE ]
he know what you have and 'intelligent lags' people dont try to get people to fold TPTK in live games

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incredibly confusing to me.

If he knows I have TPTK, and he is not trying to get me to fold, then shouldn't I be folding? In other words, if the case is as you suggest, then what is the purpose of his raise?

If he is that far ahead, AND ALSO knows what I have, then shouldn't an intelligent lag be waiting for the turn to get more money in the pot by raising?

By your analysis, his raise represents a lot of strength; thus, you are suggesting a fold, right?


TK

is g-p making any sense to anyone?
 

g-p,

Could you PLEASE explain your responses? And, if you could articulate, what would be your course of action here?

It would be most appreciated.


TK

Re: is g-p making any sense to anyone?
 

ur villain isnt as smart as yr giving him credit for

Re: is g-p making any sense to anyone?
 

You are a dog to his range of hands. Best case scenario is he has 12 outs (Axss). You lost 26BB don't lose 260BB...

Fold. Just don't let anyone know what you laid down.

Re: is g-p making any sense to anyone?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You lost 26BB don't lose 260BB...


[/ QUOTE ]
Explain what this has to do with anything?

Re: is g-p making any sense to anyone?
 

[ QUOTE ]
g-p,

Could you PLEASE explain your responses? And, if you could articulate, what would be your course of action here?

It would be most appreciated.


TK

[/ QUOTE ]

he is saying to fold bc villian knows what you have is not dumb enough to try to bluff someone off TPTK so thus he is value raising or at least has a really strong draw.

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

I don't like being OOP against a smart LAG. It's not a situation you want to be in. That said, given your actions so far here is what I'd do:

-Fold

Here is why: If you push, you are risking 200 BB's to win a fairly small pot. You only get called if you are crushed.

If you call, then you are in a bad situation again on the turn. He can't go wrong really since he is in position and your hand is clearly defined.

If you check the turn after this, again he has you by the throat. Give it up and wait for a better spot IMO.

Re: is g-p making any sense to anyone?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
g-p,

Could you PLEASE explain your responses? And, if you could articulate, what would be your course of action here?

It would be most appreciated.


TK

[/ QUOTE ]

he is saying to fold bc villian knows what you have is not dumb enough to try to bluff someone off TPTK so thus he is value raising or at least has a really strong draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soooo...because he opened w/a standard raise in early position and cont. bet the flop he HAS to have TPTK???

Nonsense.

Re: is g-p making any sense to anyone?
 

well, theres not too many hands he can have that are better than ours, and theres lots of potential draws. also, if we just call, the rest of the hand is tough to play one way or another, and chances are he'll play it close to perfectly.

so, unless your preflop+flop actions define your hand to him too clearly, it looks like a shove to me. kind of gross though, and i'd generally not bet that much on the flop for the exact reason that i want to avoid spots like this.

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

If you call, he knows you have at the very least an ace with a good kicker. With him knowing this, it likely that he is going to just check/fold the rest of the hand. You will get no more money out of him.

If you push, the only hands you really have to worry about are AA, 66, 99 and combo draws. But, I think by pushing you can probably get him to call with a alot of worse hands than those four, so pushing is probably the best value.

By flat calling, you are less likely to have him get stupid with hands at a disadvantage to yours.

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

I think the main thing is.. how often can he fire 3 barrels here?

Let's say you call and turn is a 2x, and he fires 900 what do you do? Call? And if he fires all-in on river (1500-1600~) what do you do?

I think if villian is capable of firing 3 barrels you need to fold, and if villian can only fire 2, I don't mind a call on flop and call on turn.

Re: Not as \"standard\" a hand as it might seem at first blush....
 

Misread stack sizes. I def. raise though, just not a push.