Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Thank god I'm practicing bankroll management or I'd be busto. Don't laugh because I'm playing penny poker. I was at $40 and now I'm down to $22. This downswing has occurred over the last 1500-1700 hands (just about 2 weeks).

Villain is 49/20/1 over 100 hands in this particular session. I am 28/7.9/3.8 over 6,700 hands. For some background info, I am very aggressive on the button when it's folded around to me. I will typically raise with any two cards and put out a continuation bet at a passive table. However, the blinds at this table were defenders but passive postflop so I decided to limp with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Also, I got a read on villain where he raises with junk and limps or sometimes minraises with hands like AA-JJ. I had seen him play draws very aggressively and slow play a monster on a draw heavy board. Finally, he's one of those donks where if he catches any piece of the flop he will call down to the river. This is where I'm currently having issues. Villain plays 50% of his hands so do I assume he's got a weak hand or a draw? Do we really know where we stand in situations like this where villain plays 50% of his hands. It seems like anything falls within his range. How do we play against these types, do we tighten up and trap, or do we push marginal advantages?

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.01./$0.02.
4 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $0.73
Hero: $2.04
SB: $1.16
BB: $2.94

Pre-flop: (4 players) Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($0.06, 3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $0.06</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $0.24</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

I decided to just call because I figured I have two pair and he might have AK-A8 or KJ-J9, or a flush draw. Should I have shoved? Like I said before this guy takes any piece of the flop to the river. But he plays his draws aggressively so I put him on a flush draw. His flop AF is 1.75 (turn and river AF get progressively smaller). I was debating shoving but I was a little gun shy because I had just gotten stacked at a different table, so I decided to call. Was this my big mistake?

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($0.54, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB is all-in $0.9</font>, Hero ???.

I ran the numbers on poker stove and it looks like I was quite a bit ahead of his range:

Board: Ac 8s Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 64.154% 63.59% 00.57% 86242 770.00 { Jh8h }
Hand 1: 35.846% 35.28% 00.57% 47848 770.00 { A2s+, KJs, QJs, J9s+, A5o+, KJo, QJo, J9o+ }

Comments/Criticism are VERY welcome

AC

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

lol at sample size

edit: reraise flop, too many draws allowed in if u flatcall

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

1700 hands downswing? Wow.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Do not ever open limp preflop. Especially four handed. This is just bad. Especially on the button. Raise here.

You flopped a monster! ZOMG! The board is drawy! 3bet, try to get all the money in on this flop!!

Turn is not a spade, doesn't really complete any draws, basically a blank! Get it in!!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Based on your read shove the flop..

General comments...Tighten up your spread between VP$IP and PFR%..With a PFR number of 8 I find it very very very hard to believe you are abusing the button in the fashion you say...OTOH If your are raising the button liberally your position play is horrible...Far to much limp calling and or calling raises...Limp calling is lighting money on fire...

I would suggest you post your stats(general and position stats) in the thread you seem to have some major leaks in your pre-flop and position play..

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your read shove the flop..

General comments...Tighten up your spread between VP$IP and PFR%..With a PFR number of 8 I find it very very very hard to believe you are abusing the button in the fashion you say...OTOH If your are raising the button liberally your position play is horrible...Far to much limp calling and or calling raises...Limp calling is lighting money on fire...

I would suggest you post your stats(general and position stats) in the thread you seem to have some major leaks in your pre-flop and position play..

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks KEW...Here you go...

General Stats over 6,740 hands
=================================
VP$IP: 28.13
VP$IP from SB: 40.91
PFR: 7.91
Flop AF: 4.19
Turn AF: 3.44
River AF: 2.86
Total AF: 3.77

Position Stats (Total Hands/VP$IP/ColdCall%/PFR
================================
Button: 1330/36.77/3.76/13.38
1 (Cutoff): 1217/26.29/2.05/7.31
2: 1017/25.27/0.20/7.96
3: 546/24.91/0.00/8.61
BB: 1327/12.13/0.00/4.60
SB: 1303/40.91/0.00/5.91 &lt;--- The VP$IP might be a leak???

Let me know if this is what you're looking for. How can I tell in PT if I'm limping and then calling a raise to much? I there a filter for this? Thanks in advance.

AC

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

We need to get the easiest issue out of the way first - you are limping in with too many hands preflop. Your VPIP is too high and your PFR too low. You need to learn to tighten up and raise with position. In your example hand, you should raise before the flop! You have great position with a limper in front of you. Position = Value.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Easy raise preflop, get it in on the flop. As played instacall turn everytime.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
We need to get the easiest issue out of the way first - you are limping in with too many hands preflop. Your VPIP is too high and your PFR too low. You need to learn to tighten up and raise with position. In your example hand, you should raise before the flop! You have great position with a limper in front of you. Position = Value.

[/ QUOTE ]
A few questions...

1. My VPIP in general, or my VPIP from the button, or both are too high?
2. What is a good VPIP range for a good semi-loose aggressive player. I'm hearing between 20% - 25%
3. Should I be raising the button everytime it's folded to me no matter what two cards I have?

AC

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do not ever open limp preflop. Especially four handed. This is just bad. Especially on the button. Raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi mookboi,

Are you saying never limp in 6-max ever, or never limp from the CO and button? I love playing suited connectors and small pocket pairs (as we all do). I typically limp from early postion with them. Are you saying I should raise with these hands from EP instead of limp?

I find myself limping with suited connectors and small PPs from early postion and calling reasonable sized raises with them. As KEW pointed out, maybe this is a leak. That's why I'm posting again because I want to close some of these before it gets out of hand. Thanks in advance.

AC

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I will never limp from early position. If I flop a huge hand in a limped pot chances are I won't win much. If I flop a draw I will have to play it out of position. When I raise I can take down the blinds, and create the right image so that when I hit big i can get paid off.

I raise any pocket pair from any position. The answer to most your questions can be found in the excellent 6-max fundamentals thread in the sticky.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

ok i'm going to contradict everything in this thread. having a pfr that is only slightly less than your vpip is a recipe for disaster at &lt;=10nl. an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe. at 10nl and less you have to take advantage of how little most of the players care about what happens. but as you would at a higher limit and have to still take advantage of position. if you can play the button for 1bb you should do it everytime and then look to make a bet on the flop if no one seems to want the pot. and don't get discouraged by downswings there simply is no way to avoid them.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Based on your read shove the flop..

General comments...Tighten up your spread between VP$IP and PFR%..With a PFR number of 8 I find it very very very hard to believe you are abusing the button in the fashion you say...OTOH If your are raising the button liberally your position play is horrible...Far to much limp calling and or calling raises...Limp calling is lighting money on fire...

I would suggest you post your stats(general and position stats) in the thread you seem to have some major leaks in your pre-flop and position play..

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks KEW...Here you go...

General Stats over 6,740 hands
=================================
VP$IP: 28.13
VP$IP from SB: 40.91
PFR: 7.91
Flop AF: 4.19
Turn AF: 3.44
River AF: 2.86
Total AF: 3.77

Position Stats (Total Hands/VP$IP/ColdCall%/PFR
================================
Button: 1330/36.77/3.76/13.38
1 (Cutoff): 1217/26.29/2.05/7.31
2: 1017/25.27/0.20/7.96
3: 546/24.91/0.00/8.61
BB: 1327/12.13/0.00/4.60
SB: 1303/40.91/0.00/5.91 &lt;--- The VP$IP might be a leak???

Let me know if this is what you're looking for. How can I tell in PT if I'm limping and then calling a raise to much? I there a filter for this? Thanks in advance.

AC

[/ QUOTE ]


I am sure what I am going to say has already been said(I went to play a session)...

You need to tighten up and increase your PFR%...You are playing far far too many hands OOP...Limping into the pot is a bad idea..Standard raise is 4XBB + 1BB per limper..There is no reason to play this many hands at this limit..

I am confused by you post flop aggression figure..How can you be so passive pre-flop but then go wild(compared to PF) after the flop...Limping in as often as you do I can not see you hitting enough flop to justify those post flop aggro numbers...

Number #1 most important lesson in NL is the importance of position...Hands that are unplayable from EP are easily +EV from LP...

When just learning the game you are much better off playing fewer hands..The number 1 reason new low limit player lose is they simply play to many hands..I would suggest you tighten up to about 18%..Greatly increase your opening raises and ATT to Steal #...

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Does not compute.

[ QUOTE ]
I am 28/7.9/3.8 over 6,700 hands. For some background info, I am very aggressive on the button when it's folded around to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Am I reading this right?

It is 4-handed and you open limp the button??

You lost less than 100bb with two pair when there were two flush draws out.

No big deal.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok i'm going to contradict everything in this thread. having a pfr that is only slightly less than your vpip is a recipe for disaster at &lt;=10nl. an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe. at 10nl and less you have to take advantage of how little most of the players care about what happens. but as you would at a higher limit and have to still take advantage of position. if you can play the button for 1bb you should do it everytime and then look to make a bet on the flop if no one seems to want the pot. and don't get discouraged by downswings there simply is no way to avoid them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree with you on this one. My stats are around 22/17/2.83 and I'm doing very well at 10NL and killed 2NL. Think I'm about ready to move up to 25NL. Limping that much in 10NL doesn't allow you to win much money from those people that don't care what happens when you actually hit a hand.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Are you talking about Tien's "Some 6max Fundamentals" post? If so, I just read it and man, it was an eye-opener! I now realize I'm playing way too loose passive preflop. No more open limping for me in LP.

AC

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Drive the bus rather than ride the little yellow bus to school. That means RAISE RAISE RAISE. Seriously your preflop raise should be way over half your VP. 24/20, 22/18, 16/12, 45/30...what ever you decide to play you need to be raising hands and putting pressure.

If you can't raise certain hands due to position or table conditions, then dont play it. Playing limp along is not going to win you large enough pots to equal out against the times you miss. When you are the preflop raiser you have so many different ways to win the hands post flop. Using position you are controlling the table that hand. Become the driver and not the rider, the game gets ALOT easier!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

you have a long way to go young grasshopper. You will get there. I am sure a vast majority of us started out like you. I know I did.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

put more money in! you can definitely afford to put in at least 50 more no?

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I have'nt played any online poker in a few months now because of problems with my marriage, though my marriage is over now so I think I'm going to get back into it.

When I first started a year ago playing NLHE on Stars i played .01/.02 and cleaned up over a really decent sample for something like 40bbl/100. That is no joke. Stars 2cent tables play at 250bb deep though a lot of people buy in for stupid amounts anyway. I read tiens 6max fundamentals right when I started playing. I think his recommendations for preflop are a little too tight 10 or 25NL but at 2cent they are just fine. I played super tight and usually ran about 14/10.

The level of play is so bad that there should be no need for anykind of fancy play. You could play a laggy style profitably at that level by outplaying everbody postflop, though for me it was far easier to play like a nit, super straightforward both pre and post flop, which allowed me to play 9 tables at once. Pretty much every bet you make at this level should be a value bet. Stealing blinds is less profitable because you will so often need to showdown a hand to win a pot. You're money at this level should simply come from getting you're TPTK and better hands paid off. Against like 90% of the players there TPTK should be played for stacks.

It's boring poker but it wins the money at that level. Ideally you want to power through it as quickly as possible because the level of play is so stupid.

If you can, I'd recommend that you grind these nano limits on stars because I'm pretty sure that the rake is the best there and the 2cent and 5cent tables are deep stacked which increases your profits on your big hands, which is really where the money is going to come from. Stealing blinds there is meh, because most of the time you cant steal. Same goes for cbetting at whiffed pots because most of the are at least 3 way. If you play super tight you can play more tables and when you hit your big pairs and sets you make your money.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am telling him what works. i would know since i have played more 10nl than anyone. stopping playing tag is the best thing that ever happened to my game. besides i only have 1 guy in my 10nl db with a solid wr playing a tag style and several people with solid wr who are not playing tag.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am telling him what works. i would know since i have played more 10nl than anyone. stopping playing tag is the best thing that ever happened to my game. besides i only have 1 guy in my 10nl db with a solid wr playing a tag style and several people with solid wr who are not playing tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

lololololol this is the worst advice EVAR!! Thats WHY you have played more 10NL than anyone else!!!!!lolololol...obv there arent many winning tags at 10NL cause they get better and move up LDO and the ones that are there for a long period of time suck postflop!!! this could be 1 of the most redic threads ive read in a while lolololol

i hate to come off as a dick but COME ON THAT IS HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE ADIVCE!!!!

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I actually don't have a problem with Jerry's advice necessarily... I choose tables all the time where TAG isn't ideal.

I love tables where 3-4 players are seeing over 50% of all flops and never fold anything. Furthermore, they are passive preflop.

I seek these tables out. At these tables, raising with speculative hands is costly because you rarely take hands down with cbets and pretty much never steal blinds.

Under these conditions, you can and should see more hands from more positions as cheaply as possible.

I can't say if the $10 tables are good for this style of play since I don't play there... but I've played $25 and $50 tables where I've switched from TAG to loose/passive because the table dynamics called for it.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

wow ive never seen table dynamics that call for playin like 35/3 like jerry advices ...wtf that is just ludacris. plz explain kurto.

The table dynamics you give im playin my standard 22/20ish style all day.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Jerry do you paly on PS? What days and times and a screen name would be helpful.

Thanks

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

dont think Kurto means to play that loose/passive (30-40/3/)
but just that sometimes against horrible opponents that see tons of flops and dont fold to pfr's and dont fold to c-bets you can adjust by just seing alot of flops and value betting them to death when you make a hand. these type of players will call off alot of their stacks in unraised pots anyways so you dont have to raise as much.

game conditions arent like this that often online IMO though, maybe just like fri/sat night.

These concepts do apply more in Live FR NL games at most casinos though were players are just terrible and I think you could win by just limping often and only raising jj+ and AK and turn a good profit.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I must admit I'm surprised that you haven't seen or can't picture the appropriate dynamics.

There are many reasons to raise pf:
(1) you likely have the best hand
(2) steal blinds/pot
(3) buy position
(4) isolate a player
(5) disguise the value of your hand
(6) increases ability to steal flop with c-bet
(7) increase chances of playing for stacks

If the table is filled with shortstacks who aren't going to fold their limping hands to your positional raise AND won't fold postflop if they hit anything... a lot of hands that you would raise to steal blinds now become fold OR limps.

If raising doesn't ever steal blinds, then I don't raise to steal blinds as much.

If raising will never buy you the button, then I don't raise in that instance.

If raising never isolates because 2-3 people still call, then stop raising simply to isolate.

On the other hand, Hands that you would normally fold utg, like suited aces and such, become more playable if you know 4 people are going to see a flop and no one will raise it (or if they do, they raise it 1bb)...but will pay you with their entire stack if you hit.... limping becomes viable.

If I have the button and have 78s, and there are 4 limpers, I'm not raising preflop. Because I'm rarely going to be able to steal on the flop and I'm rarely going to flop huge. That being said, If I flop 2 pair and anyone else has top pair... I'll make a decent pot.

I've been at too many tables where I'm making positional raises quite often, I get 3-4 players to the flop and can't cbet because the players either bet into the field (I missed) or will checkcall down with any pair, any draw, etc.

In these cases, where the play post flop is bad, and the whole table allows everyone to see cheap flops... I can raise my good hands for value, and take speculative hands cheaply... believe me, no one's noticing that I'm raising my good hands and limping with suited connectors.

Don't get me wrong, I usually vary anywhere from supernit (18/9 to 25/13)... but I've found many a table where I gladly switch to playing 33/5

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

I think you left out the most important reason to raise PF, to gain information about other hands you are up against. YOu mention suited Aces. Lets say you play Ad 7d and the flop comes A 10 8 rainbow without a diamond. If you limp anyone could call with A 8 and up and you are dominated and with no info a beginner will spew with TPWK at the micros. May work for you but is not good advice to give someone who is already struggling.

Most of the people I see that complain their Aces and Kings always get cracked limp with them and with pairs you are begging to get drawn out on without narrowing down the number of players in the pot.

I hope to see a 35/5 at my tables tonight. Good luck all.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

[/ QUOTE ]

WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am telling him what works. i would know since i have played more 10nl than anyone. stopping playing tag is the best thing that ever happened to my game. besides i only have 1 guy in my 10nl db with a solid wr playing a tag style and several people with solid wr who are not playing tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

lololololol this is the worst advice EVAR!! Thats WHY you have played more 10NL than anyone else!!!!!lolololol...obv there arent many winning tags at 10NL cause they get better and move up LDO and the ones that are there for a long period of time suck postflop!!! this could be 1 of the most redic threads ive read in a while lolololol

i hate to come off as a dick but COME ON THAT IS HORRIBLE HORRIBLE HORRIBLE ADIVCE!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

ever think that maybe i choose to stick to 10nl is because i just don't feel comfortable playing with more money in front of me?

[ QUOTE ]
dont think Kurto means to play that loose/passive (30-40/3/)
but just that sometimes against horrible opponents that see tons of flops and dont fold to pfr's and dont fold to c-bets you can adjust by just seing alot of flops and value betting them to death when you make a hand. these type of players will call off alot of their stacks in unraised pots anyways so you dont have to raise as much.

game conditions arent like this that often online IMO though, maybe just like fri/sat night.

These concepts do apply more in Live FR NL games at most casinos though were players are just terrible and I think you could win by just limping often and only raising jj+ and AK and turn a good profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the crux of the issue. unless you are running hot as balls you are not going to make a hand often enough to turn a profit if you raise pf so often.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

Ok good argument but jerry wasnt sayin "under these conditions play loose/passive" he said thats basically this is the style to always go w/ which i 100% disagree w/. And some of the examples you give like the shortstack table...switch tables, you shouldnt be playin w/ a table full of shorties (but maybe this is just preference). I also think the preference thing comes into play sometimes too when it comes to limping. Personally I HATE limping. It can sometimes be more +EV but more often than not it isnt.

I figured the table dynamics you'd give for your argument are pretty much exactly what you did give, but to change your style to loose/passive the table conditions have to be at an extreme which IMO dont occur often enough to really worry about it. And basically giving this advice to a strugglin 2NL player is awful b/c switchin your style like this becomes a little more complicated and a bit above his skill level IMO (no offence OP). And ive played as low as 2NL, w/ then a standard ABC nit fish and crushed the games. And honestly any style can beat micros especially 10NL and below as long as your postflop play is decent but playin TAG is typically a lot easyer and more profitable for most.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok good argument but jerry wasnt sayin "under these conditions play loose/passive" he said thats basically this is the style to always go w/ which i 100% disagree w/. And some of the examples you give like the shortstack table...switch tables, you shouldnt be playin w/ a table full of shorties (but maybe this is just preference). I also think the preference thing comes into play sometimes too when it comes to limping. Personally I HATE limping. It can sometimes be more +EV but more often than not it isnt.

I figured the table dynamics you'd give for your argument are pretty much exactly what you did give, but to change your style to loose/passive the table conditions have to be at an extreme which IMO dont occur often enough to really worry about it. And basically giving this advice to a strugglin 2NL player is awful b/c switchin your style like this becomes a little more complicated and a bit above his skill level IMO (no offence OP). And ive played as low as 2NL, w/ then a standard ABC nit fish and crushed the games. And honestly any style can beat micros especially 10NL and below as long as your postflop play is decent but playin TAG is typically a lot easyer and more profitable for most.

[/ QUOTE ]

i've never seen a 2nl table that wasn't loose/passive and 90% of the 10nl tables seem to be loose/passive as well

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think you left out the most important reason to raise PF, to gain information about other hands you are up against.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'm at a table where there are 3 people each seeing more then 60% of the flops (and yes, you can find these tables nearly every night on Full Tilt $25NL 6max), when I raise, I have NO information about what the 3 guys who call me are playing.

[ QUOTE ]
YOu mention suited Aces. Lets say you play Ad 7d and the flop comes A 10 8 rainbow without a diamond. If you limp anyone could call with A 8 and up and you are dominated and with no info a beginner will spew with TPWK at the micros. May work for you but is not good advice to give someone who is already struggling.


[/ QUOTE ]

But I'm not calling with a suited ace to play a big pot with Top Pair weak kicker. Depending on the board and who is involved in the hand, I can drop top pair weak kicker. I may or may not call down with top pair depending on who badly I think the other player is and whether or not they give away their hand strength based on bet sizing.

Haven't you been at tables where 4 people will see the flop and someone will bet 2bb into a 8bb pot on the flop and everyone will call? Then, when you hit the nutflush on th turn, these same people with sets/2 pair/lesser flushes will get their full stack in on the turn?

I'm not recommending people who can't fold top pair crap kicker play Axs UTG. I'm recommending it to people who have the patience and discipline to see many pots cheaply and only get a lot in post flop when they have a monster.

"Most of the people I see that complain their Aces and Kings always get cracked limp with them and with pairs you are begging to get drawn out on without narrowing down the number of players in the pot."

I agree. I said you should still raise your monsters... you can still raise for value. I'm merely suggesting that, if players post flop play is bad ("Can't fold bottom pair" or "I have a gutshot... I'll put in half my stack on the turn") and there's little to no raising preflop, then you should see more flops cheaply with hands that can hit monsters (especially if they're disguised)

I said in the post - raise your really strong hands. See many flops with speculative hands cheaply.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope to see a 35/5 at my tables tonight. Good luck all.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're setting your standards too low. At $25 Full Tilt, you should be looking for 65/3 and 75/20.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

jerry, a while back didnt you have a thread where you were a losing player over 200k hands at like 50NL/25NL?? and played as high as 100NL??? so what are you talkn about not being comfortable playin higher than 10NL. And everyone tried to give you good advice, even jony offered to coach you for a very reasonable price and you wouldnt take it?? correct me if im wrong plz.

and yea 10NL is def loose/passive so i guess i just ran good when i built my bankroll and moved up quick playin TAG??...

BUT OK OK OK your advice is correct i give up (loose/passive works in loose/passive games) and everyone knows games get more aggro as you move up so then you must realize that YOUR STUCK AT 10NL...i hate gettin in gay dick waving arguements but some ppl wanta move up (and my guess is OP wants to) and the style you advocate is EXTREMELY exploitable as you move up and bad advice in general.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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jerry, a while back didnt you have a thread where you were a losing player over 200k hands at like 50NL/25NL?? and played as high as 100NL??? so what are you talkn about not being comfortable playin higher than 10NL. And everyone tried to give you good advice, even jony offered to coach you for a very reasonable price and you wouldnt take it?? correct me if im wrong plz.

and yea 10NL is def loose/passive so i guess i just ran good when i built my bankroll and moved up quick playin TAG??...

BUT OK OK OK your advice is correct i give up (loose/passive works in loose/passive games) and everyone knows games get more aggro as you move up so then you must realize that YOUR STUCK AT 10NL...i hate gettin in gay dick waving arguements but some ppl wanta move up (and my guess is OP wants to) and the style you advocate is EXTREMELY exploitable as you move up and bad advice in general.

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if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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an ideal vpip would probably be 30-40 with a pfr of less than 5. you have to see as many flops as possible as cheaply as possible to beat the lowest levels of nlhe.

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WOW...Jerry thats terrible advice.

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I also thinks so. I have a friend who has recently played 2nl and I watched him do it alot. I basically think that outfolding people pf is the key to the game (and of course raising with your good hands/ when in good position). That, and getting enough money to move up as quickly as possible ;-]

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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if you recall i played nitty/TAG in the hands in the 200k post. which is exactly why i KNOW it does not win. and there were a couple hands of 50nl and 200nl on there thats how i know i'm not comfortable playing that high...because i tried it.

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I have to say... I agreed that Jerry's advice could work in certain conditions (which may or may not regularly exist at the $10 tables.) That being said, playing nitty at microlimits is not a losing strategy.

You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.

I suspect if you played nitty, you had other leaks.

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



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theres no way in hell that works

Re: Downswing Need Sanity Check from 2+2ers
 

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You could do NOTHING but play pocket pairs and AKsuited... and no one would notice and you would make money.



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theres no way in hell that works

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There's actually a motorway in hell this works. And an 8-lane one or so.