Simple TT preflop question.
 

5/10 10-handed, effective stacks are $670.
EP, MP, MP+1, CO all limp.

I make it $75 OTB with TT.

Another poster said this was "horrible", and that I should re-read theory of poker.

Does anyone ever limp here?

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

might limp here on opium, but thats it

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

no

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

lol, who said this?

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

you are WAAAAAAAAAAY ahead their ranges.

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

fold PF, UTG has aces and UTG+1 has kings

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

jesus wollygimp do you remember two and a half years ago whe nyou were tellingme how my preflop raise sizing was bad back at 1-2 nl online and you were lecturing me about stuff now i am a huge winner and masterful theoretician and you have resorted to this

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

I wasn't taking them seriously, but this thread makes me arguing my point a hell of a lot easier.

Anyway, the real hand:

I raise $75, SB calls (I put him on a big hand), 4 other callers.

Flop is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

Checked to me and I ??? I've got $600 left. Pot's $350.

Bet/call?

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

I changed my mind looks like you should make it $125 preflop. :/

250/call here.

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

Raise every time obv

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

Personally I raise 88+ right here (for value), and occasionally 77 if I'm against a lot of nitty players where there is a good chance that I pick up their limps PF.

Anyone else go lower than that?

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are WAAAAAAAAAAY ahead their ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only time this is the only thing that matters is if you were allin preflop for that $75 raise

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

wooly:

stop wasting everyone's time. this is an easy raise. after the flop, you get to play 'poker'. which is a lot better than ultra-nitty set mining with the button and the 5th best pair in the game.

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Personally I raise 88+ right here (for value), and occasionally 77 if I'm against a lot of nitty players where there is a good chance that I pick up their limps PF.

Anyone else go lower than that?

[/ QUOTE ]

with 4 limpers in front i'm raising almost any two

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

This is live? Make it 100, flop an overpair vs. 3 players, ship it in

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
wooly:

stop wasting everyone's time. this is an easy raise. after the flop, you get to play 'poker'. which is a lot better than ultra-nitty set mining with the button and the 5th best pair in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a raise is obvious, but the amount of the raise is not obvious.

Why $75?

Why not $100 or $25?

What was his plan when he made the preflop raise, other than "I have the best hand, so I'll raise more than 10% of the effective stacks so that I'm pretty much pot-committed after any continuation bet..."

I think the raise was needlessly large. Despite his great position, live players love to limp/call hands like AQs and even A-rag and K-rag suited, then take top-pair and 2-pair too far post flop. So, in a multi-way, huge pot, after putting in over 10% of his stack, is he going to check behind on any flop with a J/Q/K/A on it? Or c-b for about 1/3 to 1/2 his stack? And then what? Fold to any resistance?

So, what was his target SPR and why? If he planned to play TT for value as a single pair, then getting a very low-SPR is good. So, if that was his plan, then maybe a big raise to $75 with a plan to get all in on most flops and/or turns was good.

But in a game where some of the live players might play top-pair weak kicker OOP like is was the nuts, maybe an SPR of 6-10 might have been better where he can win an uncontested pot on a cb that isn't pot-committing, but still have excellent implied odds to play for some guy's stack when/if he hits a set. That means a pot of $60-$100 might be better than the pot that he ended up building in the OP.

So why not raise to $20 expecting 5-players to the flop for a pot of ~100 and tentative plan to cb most safe flops (and when you hit a set) for $75 planning to fold to resistance with overcards on board, go for the felt with a set, but maybe check behind on many unsafe or suspicious flops.

I think raising less preflop to give himself more room post-flop for more than only 2 pot sized bets of play would have been better than raising to $75.

Raising to somewhere between $20 and $40 would have been much better than $75. He would still build a nice pot, still take it down on many cb's, but he'd have much more room to avoid being pot-committed with just one bet post-flop.

As played, bet-call-an-all-in is best. If he bets and gets called, then he should push any river if checked to and call any river if bet into. At that point, he's pretty much pot-stuck, and TT will be ahead often enough to get all in on just about any turn.

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wooly:

stop wasting everyone's time. this is an easy raise. after the flop, you get to play 'poker'. which is a lot better than ultra-nitty set mining with the button and the 5th best pair in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a raise is obvious, but the amount of the raise is not obvious.

Why $75?

Why not $100 or $25?

What was his plan when he made the preflop raise, other than "I have the best hand, so I'll raise more than 10% of the effective stacks so that I'm pretty much pot-committed after any continuation bet..."

I think the raise was needlessly large. Despite his great position, live players love to limp/call hands like AQs and even A-rag and K-rag suited, then take top-pair and 2-pair too far post flop. So, in a multi-way, huge pot, after putting in over 10% of his stack, is he going to check behind on any flop with a J/Q/K/A on it? Or c-b for about 1/3 to 1/2 his stack? And then what? Fold to any resistance?

So, what was his target SPR and why? If he planned to play TT for value as a single pair, then getting a very low-SPR is good. So, if that was his plan, then maybe a big raise to $75 with a plan to get all in on most flops and/or turns was good.

But in a game where some of the live players might play top-pair weak kicker OOP like is was the nuts, maybe an SPR of 6-10 might have been better where he can win an uncontested pot on a cb that isn't pot-committing, but still have excellent implied odds to play for some guy's stack when/if he hits a set. That means a pot of $60-$100 might be better than the pot that he ended up building in the OP.

So why not raise to $20 expecting 5-players to the flop for a pot of ~100 and tentative plan to cb most safe flops (and when you hit a set) for $75 planning to fold to resistance with overcards on board, go for the felt with a set, but maybe check behind on many unsafe or suspicious flops.

I think raising less preflop to give himself more room post-flop for more than only 2 pot sized bets of play would have been better than raising to $75.

Raising to somewhere between $20 and $40 would have been much better than $75. He would still build a nice pot, still take it down on many cb's, but he'd have much more room to avoid being pot-committed with just one bet post-flop.

As played, bet-call-an-all-in is best. If he bets and gets called, then he should push any river if checked to and call any river if bet into. At that point, he's pretty much pot-stuck, and TT will be ahead often enough to get all in on just about any turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

AM:

If dude raises to 40, ALL WILL CALL 100,000%, and then we'll have to play a 5+ way pot with TT ui 78% of the time. You will almost never get to cbet profitably.

The absolutely standard play here is to make it about pot preflop and betcall most flops.

Your application of inapplicable 2p2 literature is once again the direct opposite of the correct play. This is no knock against you, it only shows how completely inapplicable NL cash books are. Although, honestly, in this case im pretty sure NL t and p or PNL would say to psr pre and betcall flop.

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

I don't agree with much he just said but it's very annoying to see you quote such a long post and reply with nothing more than "LOL".

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

Albert - raising to $20 accomplishes nothing. There are no few safe flops for TT in a 5 way pot. If you raise to $75, you get more money put into the pot by probably one person who is a dog to outflop your hand, then you c-bet nearly every flop and make a profit. If you get multiple callers, you can be warier of c-betting, but the pot's also going to be larger.

If you had 33, min-raising like this might be cool because you're rarely c-betting and flopping a set here would be sweet. but i can't imagine it with this stack size.

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with much he just said but it's very annoying to see you quote such a long post and reply with nothing more than "LOL".

[/ QUOTE ]

it was necessary. made me lol

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Albert - raising to $20 accomplishes nothing. There are no few safe flops for TT in a 5 way pot. If you raise to $75, you get more money put into the pot by probably one person who is a dog to outflop your hand, then you c-bet nearly every flop and make a profit. If you get multiple callers, you can be warier of c-betting, but the pot's also going to be larger.

If you had 33, min-raising like this might be cool because you're rarely c-betting and flopping a set here would be sweet. but i can't imagine it with this stack size.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. I actually mis-read the hand.

I thought it was 5/5 not 5/10. Meaning that I thought the stacks were twice as deep as they actually were and that the size of the limped pot was half as big as it actually was. I had just assumed that the OP had over 100bb in his stack to start and I skimmed right over the blind level seeing what I wanted to see.

Oh, well. Disregard my post.

If it was 5/5, then a medium sized raise might be better than a raise to 15x the bb, however.

I was up early and wrote my post before my second cup of coffee.

At least min-raising is a novel, non-standard idea that made somebody laugh.

Re: Simple TT preflop question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
AM:

If dude raises to 40, ALL WILL CALL 100,000%, and then we'll have to play a 5+ way pot with TT ui 78% of the time. You will almost never get to cbet profitably.

The absolutely standard play here is to make it about pot preflop and betcall most flops.

Your application of inapplicable 2p2 literature is once again the direct opposite of the correct play. This is no knock against you, it only shows how completely inapplicable NL cash books are. Although, honestly, in this case im pretty sure NL t and p or PNL would say to psr pre and betcall flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, if the button did min-raise, it would be with the hope that everybody called. He'd then not cb, but only play for set value.

But, given the stack sizes, that would probably be worse than either raising like the OP, or just limping. Limping to play for set value wouldn't be terrible. Raising for value is probably better.

I'd misread the hand (I thought it was 5/5 not 5/10). And even if I'd read it right, you might not like my analysis. But at least it would have made more sense.

As for 2+2 literature, I miscalculated everything from the start, so obviously the entire analysis was botched.

However, planning a hand around SPR is still a good idea. And making a commitment plan when 10% of your stack goes in is also good. And, so, as far as trying to apply the principles I think it's a good idea because it is easier for you to point out the errors point by point to facilitate more detailed discussion about a hand.

I really did botch this one though.