kinda crappy flop spot
 

1st hand the table, i post the BB.

EP raises, 2 callers, I defend with 65.

Flop 975 rainbow. I check, EP bets, 1 caller, next guy raises.

I'm getting 6.5:1 immediate, if other two call after me the call is 7.5:1. Of course EP could 3 bet and that would suck.

Call or no?

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

Does the book say to call in that spot PF?

The answer is no to both.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does the book say to call in that spot PF?

The answer is no to both.

[/ QUOTE ]

explanation please.

also saying something like "does the book say??" as an explanation makes you come across as either ignorant or a troll. its up to you if you want to portray yourself as such.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

I fold, we are not closing the action and our outs could easily be tainted.

A 5 is feasibly the only 'safe' card we can hit.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

It's close pf, but I see no problem with defending. It's your first hand, and defending with garbage might get you some serious table image points.

On the flop, I drop this. You could actually be drawing dead VERY easily here. People who cold call raises (if they're not completely terrible) often have pocket pairs (like 7s, 5s, or 9s). Even if there is no set out against you, hitting a 6 probably isn't too helpful. Finally, if you make your straight, JT (another favorite donkey cold call hand) makes the nuts.

Edit: As has already been said....you're not closing the action. The points I've made could be overcome if you were closing the action here (that's actually impossible without people acting out of turn I guess), but the possibility of getting sucked in for 3 or 4 bets is just too great.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You could actually be drawing dead VERY easily here. People who cold call raises (if they're not completely terrible) often have pocket pairs (like 7s, 5s, or 9s).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is going to sound nitty, but getting stuff like this right is important. Hero is not drawing dead against a set.

-McGee

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You could actually be drawing dead VERY easily here. People who cold call raises (if they're not completely terrible) often have pocket pairs (like 7s, 5s, or 9s).

[/ QUOTE ]

This is going to sound nitty, but getting stuff like this right is important. Hero is not drawing dead against a set.

-McGee

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant drawing dead against something like 77 and JT. Or perhaps 77 and 6x drawing at half the pot with 3 outs. Sorry for not being more clear about it.

Edit: And yes, I realize he could hit running 5s, but I don't ever count stuff like that in my "deadness" evaluations [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

pre is OK, hero is getting 7-1. (if 65s, obviously an easy call.)
but calling pre means not getting tied to pots with really marginal holdings like this one; flop is easy fold once raised.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
1st hand the table, i post the BB.

EP raises, 2 callers, I defend with 65.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 65s--easy call.
If it's 65o--easy fold.


[ QUOTE ]
Flop 975 rainbow. I check, EP bets, 1 caller, next guy raises.

I'm getting 6.5:1 immediate, if other two call after me the call is 7.5:1. Of course EP could 3 bet and that would suck.

Call or no?

[/ QUOTE ]

El Foldo...you're not closing the action and your 8 and 6 outs are dirty.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

there's very little difference between that 65 being suited or not. maybe a few percentage points at most.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1st hand the table, i post the BB.

EP raises, 2 callers, I defend with 65.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 65s--easy call.
If it's 65o--easy fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

getting 7:1 i doubt this is an "easy fold."

A3o is an "easy fold." this is borderline call/fold.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

alright fwiw i folded. calculating the odds more carefully afterwards i thought i made the wrong decision, but i guess its the right one.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

Crappy spot indeed, Kit. Defending is ok by me, but once we have bottom pair and a gutter we have to depend on either a four-outer or pairing the board with our third 5, and the positional disadvantage + heavy action should force us to the sidelines I think. (Why do I think the flop raiser has 86s?) Just make sure to get up from the table so you don't have to watch the 8 hit =]

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

I would say that you usually have about 4 outs (two for the fives and maybe two for your one card GS) and these are certainly not to the nuts. Some % of the time we are already up against a set and/or we are going to have to put in more than two bets on this flop, especially against an EP pf raiser whose range most likely includes a decent % of OCs.

I wouldn't find it too difficult to let this go.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1st hand the table, i post the BB.

EP raises, 2 callers, I defend with 65.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 65s--easy call.
If it's 65o--easy fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

getting 7:1 i doubt this is an "easy fold."

This is borderline call/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an easy fold if your going to be tempted to chase after a flop like this one.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1st hand the table, i post the BB.

EP raises, 2 callers, I defend with 65.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 65s--easy call.
If it's 65o--easy fold.



[/ QUOTE ]

getting 7:1 i doubt this is an "easy fold."

This is borderline call/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's an easy fold if your going to be tempted to chase after a flop like this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

and 65s is thus an easy call?

the flop is a pot odds vs RIO problem, and i guess RIO wins out, thus folding this flop is correct. who cares if i had 65o vs 65s.

if you want to say "65s is an easy call" then i guess you want to make a pot equity argument. but if you want to make such an argument then you're "65o is an easy fold" is no longer valid, as getting 7:1 I have usually have enough equity to call preflop.

Re: kinda crappy flop spot
 

Okay, sorry if it comes off as being a troll. 7.5:1 to your money is obviously great odds, however, as the others have said before, if you're going to play this hand, if you hit anything on the flop, you're basically getting the right money no matter what to see the next card.

In situations like this, I would just fold PF. I don't know what your level of play is, but 65 creates such hard decisions, it's just better for beginning-intermediate players to fold.

As played, the flop brings a pretty crazy board. If EP is a normal player, no way do I think he would CBet into 4 players. Looks like this kid probably has an overpair. The raiser can already have you crushed with trip 9s, or 7s, so you may be only drawing to 4 outs or less. Fold.