Is this a donk move?
 

I figured the pot would stay multiway until 5th so i called on 4th. Villian berated my play as donkish. Was it?
This is a low buyin stud tourney.
Tournament - 7 Card Stud High - Level IV (60/120), Ante 12, Bring-In 18 (converter)

Seat 1: 2,854
Seat 2: 1,271
Hero: 836
Seat 4: 3,107
Seat 5: 1,103
Seat 6: 1,401
Seat 7: 1,696
Seat 8: 612

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (6.60 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (5.80 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

6th Street - (8.80 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River - (11.80 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 6: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___folds

Total pot: (15.80 BB)

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

Nothing wrong with it due to the number of people in the pot on 3rd.

With 5 people calling the raise on 3rd and 5 calling the bet on 4th, you easily have odds to call, even if villain has Aces up on 4th or 5th.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

People who go around lecturing their opponents in low buy-in tournaments frequently don't know what the hell they're talking about. Here diamonds are very live, and the bettor's hand is a little dead. I can see two reasons for you not to call:

1. There is the risk of a check-raise, which you would hate. I'm guessing that that isn't too great a risk in this event.

2. That T60 represents a decent chunk of your stack, and you will frequently have to fold fifth.

In a cash game, especially a passive one, this is a pretty easy call. I think I call in your spot too, but I think it's pretty close. It's hardly donkish.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

Is it relevant that since there are many people in the pot you can hit a flush draw that is much stronger than if you were heads up for example?

I don't know, I'm actually asking. I'm more thinking in context of cash game, because I don't play tourneys [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

Its relevant because low limit tourneys depend on multiway pots. I dislike going for bare flush draws in HU scenarios.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it relevant that since there are many people in the pot you can hit a flush draw that is much stronger than if you were heads up for example?

I don't know, I'm actually asking. I'm more thinking in context of cash game, because I don't play tourneys [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make your K high flush, you have a very good chance of winning, even multi-way. If the hand is multiway, then you'll win a larger pot, so you can take a larger risk. The other players are, in a sense, helping you pay for your draw.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

Donk move was the Ace raising last and pricing all the draws into the hand. I tend to just call there, keep the pot small and conceal my hand a little bit. Thats just me.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

I think this is the only way to play it. On 5th, if the bettor were to your immediate left, the correct play in a freezeout tournament is probably to raise and attempt to get all-in given your stack size, but since the rest of the field is left to act after you, I would just call as you did.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

the call on 4th is extremely marginal. the default play should be to fold here.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

A play nobody has mentioned is raising Four.

You will probably be heads-up and in position on the Ace from here out, unless you catch an Ace card or pair in-sight, which would probably allow you to take the pot on the next card. You may also catch a Diamond or make a pair, both of which would be nice, and would allow you to take a free one if you thought you needed it.

It isn't something you'd do all the time, but with a bunch of low un-threatening boards behind you, and nobody displaying much interest in the pot, this is a good time for it because you won't lose position unless you improve (or appear to improve) your hand.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

Raising is an interesting line, but these tourneys players will call 2 bets with anything almost as often as 1. if I caught my diamond on 4th i would surely jam.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

raising 4th street is a complete spew. this guy completed 3rd street and then bet into the entire field on 4th after catching nothing. he is going no where. you have no hand and need to hit perfect just to have any shot at winning.

why why why

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

I don't think raising is necessarily best, but it's worth considering. Let's assume you need to beat a pair of Aces at the moment to win.

If hero raises on Fourth and loses the deadwood, then he's wagering 1BB to win 4+BB on Fourth, likely getting a free one on Fifth, and about 4:1 dog (by eye) if it gets heads-up on Fourth. If seat 2 has a pair less than Kings (and he will some of the time), hero is about 3:1 dog, maybe as good as 5:2 if the pair is dead. It isn't a huge moneymaker play, but hardly spew.

Hero has enough invested as a percentage of his stack that trying to win what's in there is worth a shot, and raising Fourth is less expensive than calling a half-bet on Fourth and a full bet on Fifth. It only gets bad if the Ace re-raises, and that's pretty bad, so folding is certainly less risky.

I think a raise is worth considering if the temper of the opponents implies (a) that it will be effective in getting some of them out of the pot, (b) you won't get re-popped by the Ace, and (c) you are likely to get a free card on Fifth. If none of those things apply, then yeah, screw it, get out.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

[ QUOTE ]
People who go around lecturing their opponents in low buy-in tournaments frequently don't know what the hell they're talking about. Here diamonds are very live, and the bettor's hand is a little dead. I can see two reasons for you not to call:

1. There is the risk of a check-raise, which you would hate. I'm guessing that that isn't too great a risk in this event.

2. That T60 represents a decent chunk of your stack, and you will frequently have to fold fifth.

In a cash game, especially a passive one, this is a pretty easy call. I think I call in your spot too, but I think it's pretty close. It's hardly donkish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy - if the OP was closing the action and there wasnt an A raising on 3rd then I'd agree its not that bad, as played I think its horrible.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

The guy who raised third street is also the guy betting fourth street. This is a small buy-in tournament. I'm not that worried about a raise behind me on fourth.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

all options are always worth considering. but once you consider raising you will see that it is clearly wrong. also, i doubt you get rid of the guy who has 3 spades on his board. also, if you somehow make a flush raising decreases your implied odds. also, you have no hand.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The guy who raised third street is also the guy betting fourth street. This is a small buy-in tournament. I'm not that worried about a raise behind me on fourth.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have 3 people left to act behind you....The price of the tournament should not be part of the discussion, the optimal play remains the same.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

Low-limit players are less aggressive than high-limit players. That may or may not swing this to a call, but the size of the buy-in does matter.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

I have played this pokerstars tourney quite a few times. It is a mixture of loose passive and loose aggressive players. The aggressive players will raise their 2 pair hands like crazy even in the face of a made straight or flush. The passive players will call down with small pair to the river in big pots trying to hit trips. When 3rd is completed people will not press the fold button on 4th unless they are having involuntary muscle twitch, I was counting on everyone behind me to cooperate and call 4th which they did.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Low-limit players are less aggressive than high-limit players. That may or may not swing this to a call, but the size of the buy-in does matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

that isn't always true, in fact low limit stud tournys can be rather lagtastic . Lags and calling stations live equally in these low limit levels. Im sorry, I am not convinced its a good call. Oddly this is the first time in ages that I recall disagreeing with you.

Re: Is this a donk move?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oddly this is the first time in ages that I recall disagreeing with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably only because I refuse to go out on a limb in razz threads. I'm not necessarily saying I think this is an automatic call. I do call here myself, but I call a lot. It's what I do best. All I'm saying is that it's not a terrible call. Debatable, sure, but not terrible.