A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

Dear 2+2ers-

Recently I heard that the Canterbury Park In Minneapolis raised the pot rake from $4 to $5. Although I visited couple of places in Los Angels and Atlantic City, I have no way to see the rake amount of each cardrooms. If someone can say the pot rake is NOT a big problem, then please read the paragraph below.

It is simple to figure out how much a young man shall pay the life-time rake, who began poker at 25 and finish poker 55 and continue playing 1000 hours every year (say, as a regular player) The $5 rake is equivalent to hourly rake of about $25, for estimated 45 hands per hour. He pays $25K per SINGLE year and WILL PAY total $750K in his 30 years of poker life, except his tipping to dealers.

Therefore, after CP raised from $4 to $5, the young man pay
from $600K to $750K as his total life-time rake. So $1 increase shall charge him $150K more in his life.

Here is what I know so far.
************************************************** **********
Commerce $5/$10 NLHE ($400buy) pot-rake $5 + $1(jackpot), $1 for no flop
-> Average hourly charge is about $25 in the long run for average player, if 45 hands are played per hour.
Commerce $15/$30 LHE $14 per hour
Commerce $15/$30 LHE $14 per hour
HollywoodPark $5/$10 NLHE ($400buy) pot-rake $4 + $1(jackpot), $1 for no flop
-> Average hourly charge is about $20 in the long run for average player, if 45 hands are played per hour.
Bicycle and HG charge almost same amount as HP.
Borgata in Atlantic City $5/$10 NLHE ($1500buy) FIXED $10 per hour
TajMahal in Atlantic City $15/$30 LHE FIXED $12 per hour


PokerStars $2/$4 LHE 4 to 5 dollars per hour, based on my past 50 hour data with PokerTracker with 70 hands per hour.
************************************************** *********

Please add more information, if you have experience of other places. Correct any misinformation, if any.

-Jay

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

Turning Stone I believe is 10% up to $4, but I'm not sure if there is a jackpot drop. Would be great if they made this a sticky and everyone from around country posted all the card rooms so that it can be referred back to, a directory or something with rakes would be cool.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

I found someone else made a similar posting before, as below.

LA's three major cardrooms are CLEARLY SHOWN at http://www.tworags.com/files/la%20comps.htm .

The posting by EdmondDantes seems very valuable, especially for frequent travelers like me. It includes even game type, rough number of tables running at night and rake.

-Jay

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

I noted time charges on the 1/2 hour as that is when they collect them in atlantic city, i would assume CA is the same however i think its better to list on the half hour as some may think they pay it every hour and not the 1/2 hour. There is a slight difference as you would be sure you were staying almost the full hour if they collected on the hour and not the 1/2.

Atlantic City Limits I know:
All Limit Holdem/Stud/Omaha 5/10 and under are 10% to $4.
10/20 LHE is $5 on the 1/2 hour.
10/20 Stud/Omaha are 10% to $4.
20/40 LHE/Stud is $7 on the 1/2 hour

1/2 NL is 10% to 4$
2/5 NL varies, I have to investigate, will be down this weekend, but some places its 10% to $4 and others charge $5 ont the 1/2 hour. Borgata i believe is time.


as noted above in Atlantic City $15/$30 LHE FIXED $12 per hour
however i don't know of ANY place in AC that still spreads this game. My two favorite games used to be 15/30 LHE and 15/30 Stud, however they have recently gotten rid of them at the Taj and it goes 10/20,20/40.30/60,40/80 and i think they have gotten rid of 30/60 as well last time i checked. Correct me if i am wrong and please tell me where the 15/30 LHE games are in AC.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

To rubixxcube-

How about the rough number of tables running at night, in each games and places?

-Jay

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

Borgata 2/5 NL is $5 per half hour
Borgata 5/10 NL is $6 per half hour

Borgata any raked game (1/2 NL, LHE under 10/20) is 10%, $4 max. No jackpots anywhere.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if i am wrong and please tell me where the 15/30 LHE games are in AC

[/ QUOTE ]

The Taj will spead $15-$30 if they have an interest list long enough.

They spread the game about 3 months ago.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

More info from a friend-

Venetian
2/5 $100-1$000,10% upto $4
10/20 $800buy, $7/HH
Bellagio
2/5 $200-$500, 10% upto$4
10/20 $800buy $7/HH
30/60 $500buy $6/HH
40/80 $800buy $7/HH
60/120 $1000buy $7/HH

Foxwoods(100+ tables)
12 tables of $300buy(1/2) NLHE
6 tables of $500buy(2/5) NLHE

Borgata
12 tables of $300buy(1/2) NLHE
6 tables of $500buy(2/5) NLHE

Keep me posted.

-Jay

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

ummm your friend is wrong on the Borgata # tables - they'll spread more than that.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

[ QUOTE ]
ummm your friend is wrong on the Borgata # tables - they'll spread more than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree with this. During the week they may float around those number but on weekends i have seen 15-20 1/2 NL games and a few more 2/5 running as well.

The thing about # of tables is that it varies a lot from weekends to weekdays and by time of day.

Weekends for example at borgata you will usually see 4-6 10/20 holdem and 4-6 20/40 holdem but during the week those numbers are more like 2-4 and these numbers are less in the early morning and morning until you hit the afternoon when more show up.

The Taj spreads about the same on LHE tables, not sure about NL at the taj.

Stud games at taj at 10/20 and 20/40 are usually 2-3 at each level sometimes more for 20/40.

The borgata only spreads 20/40 stud on saturdays usually and its only 1 table. No other low-mid limit stud is spread at the borgata, or if it is it is very rare.
**I will play this game sometimes as they will give some good incentives to players in this game to keep us stud players away from the taj. Example on more than 1 occasion with an almost full table we asked floor for a Free Half hour,(No Time Charge), and they granted it. Last time around 6pm they came around and comped everyone $25 to the restaurant of their choice as well. This game runs in the High Limit Room also so Free Redbulls and Fiji Water.

They almost always have 1 10/20 stud8/O8 2 way game with a half kill. On busy weekends they sometimes open up a second one if list is long and they have a spare table.

Taj also has a 1 3/6 two way game which is a full kill game and occasionally they get a 5/10 O8 with a full kill going if there is enough interest.

taj also spreads a few 2/4 omaha h/l game usually. 1-2 tables.

Borgata every once in a while spreads 2/4 O8 as well.

I'm staying down there tonight so i will try to remember to write some counts down on tables tonight and tomorrow.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

[ QUOTE ]
Venetian
2/5 $100-1$000,10% upto $4

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect unless it recently changed last I knew it was $1 on $10/$20/$50/$90

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

Bay 101 and Garden City (San Jose). Rake is $4 for all limit tables up to 8-16. Omaha Hi/Lo is $5. 20-40 and up are $5.
Most all Vegas places charge 10% up to $4. There are exceptions at the higher limits.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

In another recent thread, I've been trying to collect rake and other game info for Florida cardrooms. I'll post the rake info I know here.

Brighton Seminole Casino:
all games - 10% (minimum $1) up to $5 + $1 jackpot drop. $1 rake is taken before the flop, then the 10% is taken in 25c increments. The $1 jackpot drop is taken when the pot reaches $10. They do not observe the no flop-no drop convention.

Immokalee Seminole Casino:
limit games - 10% up to $5 + $1 jackpot drop.
no-limit games - 10% up to $6 + $1 jackpot drop.
Not sure of the details since I don't play there too often.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

Is there any chance that Borgata will ever spread 5/10 or 10/20 stud again ? In your opinion, what would it take ?

When does the 2/4 O8 game go ?

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

Palms casino 10% to $3 in all limit games and $1-$2 or $1-$3 NL. $2-$5 NL is $1 on $20/$40/$60

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any chance that Borgata will ever spread 5/10 or 10/20 stud again ? In your opinion, what would it take ?

When does the 2/4 O8 game go ?

[/ QUOTE ]

it would take convincing most if not all regulars/old dudes at the taj to go to the borgata.
I have seen 1-5 stud there maybe twice in the last 2 years. never seen 5/10 stud there and once i played in a 10/20 stud game. and once they opened a 15/30/45 stud game that lasted all of about 1 hour.

I'm not sure what they have done to try to get the players from the Taj nor i am my sure what they could do to get them over to the borgata. The rumor around town basically is if you want to play mid-limit stud in AC the Taj is the place to go.

The borgata does run several 75/150 and 150/300 stud games regularly, not sure how they got those players over there.

I also think the borgata has so many LHE and NL games going the fact that they are missing out on the few of us who play Middle limit stud is not bothering them at all.

Most Friday/Saturday nights many new tables they open are 1/2 Nl and 2/5 Nl as 1/2 especially can get long lists and they probably see it as more important to open those tables as opposed to a mid limit stud game that won't last too long.

/end rant
/end hijack

EDIT: the funniest thing is that every time i'm there they do put a few names on a list of interest, yet they know as well as i do that they aren't going to open the game.

2/4 O8 is spread randomly, i'm not sure what determines when it runs, usually peek hours on weekends.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

Here is intermediate report, collected by 2+2ers. Correct any error or missing info in this page, with possible English deficiency.

************************************************** **********
Tables # of games in each cardrooms, with rake amount

1. average number of tables on Friday 9PM(hot time) During weekdays, it is estimated about 70% of weekend, unless noted.
2. buyin and stake 3.SB&BB 4.Limit or No-Limit 5. pot rake(preflop+postflop+jackpotdrop) or hourly time charge

*)Names of cardrooms are ordered from wet to east.
*)Only mid-limit games, such as NLHE$200 or higher and LHE $5/$10 or higher, are listed.

Commerce commercecasino.com/
30/60 stud 4+1
20/40 LHE 4+1
40/80 LHE 4+1
60/120 LHE 11/HH
100/200 LHE 12/HH
400/800 LHE 16/HH
600/1200 LHE 17/HH
8 tables of $200buy ($3/$5) NLHE $1+$3+$1
10 tables of $400buy ($5/$10) NLHE $1+$4+$1
3 tables of $600buy+ ($10/$20) NLHE $9 per HH
50/100 NLHE 14/HH
Venetian venetian.com
$100buy~$1000 ($2/$5) NLHE $1 at $10/$20/$50/$90 (up to $4)
$800buy ($10/$20) NLHE $7/HH
Bellagio bellagio.com/
$200-$500 ($2/$5) NLHE 10% upto$4
$800buy ($10/$20) NLHE $7/HH
$500buy ($30/$60) NLHE $6/HH
$800buy ($40/$80) NLHE $7/HH
$1000buy ($60/$120) NLHE $7/HH

Bay 101 and Garden City in San Jose bay101.com and gardencitycasino.com
10% up to $4

Canterbury Park canterburypark.com/cardclub.aspx

Turning Stone turning-stone.com
10% up to $4

Foxwoods(100+ tables) foxwoods.com
12 tables of $300buy(1/2) NLHE
6 tables of $500buy(2/5) NLHE
Borgata theborgata.com
12 tables of $300buy(1/2) NLHE
6 tables of $500buy(2/5) NLHE
6 tables of $10/$20 LHE and 5 tables of $20/$40 LHE

TajMahal trumptaj.com
3 tables of $10/$20 LHE
3 tables of $20/$40 LHE

Brighton Seminole seminolecasinobrighton.com
10% up to $1+$4+$1 jackpot in 25c increments. The $1 jackpot drop is taken when the pot reaches $10. They do not observe the no flop-no drop convention.

Immokalee Seminole Casino theseminolecasino.com
limit games - 10% up to $5 + $1 jackpot drop.
no-limit games - 10% up to $6 + $1 jackpot drop.
************************************************** **********

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here is intermediate report, collected by 2+2ers. Correct any error or missing info in this page, with possible English deficiency.

Brighton Seminole seminolecasinobrighton.com
10% up to $1+$4+$1 jackpot in 25c increments. The $1 jackpot drop is taken when the pot reaches $10. They do not observe the no flop-no drop convention.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guess in my effort to be as detailed as possible, I was also as confusing as possible. It would be perfectly accurate to just list the rake at Brighton as 10% up to $5 + $1 jackpot drop. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

[ QUOTE ]


Bay 101 and Garden City in San Jose bay101.com and gardencitycasino.com
10% up to $4



[/ QUOTE ]


Wrong

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms
 

I think Milwaukee has the best rake going,some people dont like them because they don't have a J/P but i know that when i play at a place and put my money in their J/P for months with the same players and then it gets high and all of the sudden you have people from out of no where come to win our J/P money and usually do. I seldom see a rooms "regular" players win the J/P that they've paid into for months. Milwaukee's rake was at $4 with some "specialty" games at $3. You can't find that anywhere else in the midwest from Chi-town to Michigan.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

If Mr. Angus found it is wrong, please write it for 2+2ers.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Bay 101 and Garden City in San Jose bay101.com and gardencitycasino.com
10% up to $4



[/ QUOTE ]


Wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

The Rake at Garden City is a flat $4 regardless of pot size if there are 7 or more players at the table. For 6 players it is $3. For 5 or less players it is $1. If there is no flop it is $1. I think Bay 101 is the same.

The City of San Jose outlawed raking a percentage of the pot.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

[ QUOTE ]
The City of San Jose outlawed raking a percentage of the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

The city probably clarified California law. In California the rake can never be a percentage of the pot.

It's interesting though how clubs such as the Bike and Commerce take an extra dollar on the river if it is reached in some/most games (at the Bike I think it's also taken if a player folds to a turn raise).

It's not a percentage but a way of spreading out an increased drop. Does this mean it's possible to perhaps drop (assuming a $5 total drop) $2 on the flop, $2 on the turn, and $1 on the river (instead of $5 on the flop)?

Could you use called bets on a street as a drop trigger?

Will the sick up front drop diminish the LA Card Club business as the poker boom subsides and the games tighten up?

~ Rick

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

Ok.

Borgata this weekend had the following in terms of table numbers:

Friday and saturday night 4-6 tables of 10/20 LHE

15-16 tables of 1/2 NL
9-10 tables of 2/5 NL
4-5 tables of 10/20 LHE
3-4 tables of 20/40 LHE
2 tables of 40/80 LHE
1 table of 10/20 Stud8/O8
Occasionally 80/160 LHE (This game only runs on weekends usually)


1 table of 20/40 stud, only on saturday.

Re: A survey on rake (time) in each B&M cardrooms (Intermediate Repor)
 

At Foxwoods in 10/20 LHE they take nothing if there is no flop, $2 on the flop, $1 if pot hits $80 and $1 if the pot hits $160. Since most people chop, the pot size is generally at least $25 on the flop so the max drop would be close to 10%. Overall it probably averages ~3%.

If 35 hands get dealt an hour at LHE you had two above average dealers, My guess is that they pull ~$90-$100/hr in rake which would be ~$9-$10/hr per person if you win the average number of dollars.

The 1/2 NL games take $5 every half hour, time charge (or $10/hr). I don't know the time charge for higher limits.

When a table gets shorthanded (5 or fewer) the rake is reduced (by $1 per hand?) which is good to know but rarely applies in practice because nobody wants to play and the table breaks.

Re: A survey on rake (time) (Revised Repor)
 

Many 2+2ers helped to write this revised report. Please find more if you plan to go to casinos nearby this weekend. This report can be copied by any 2+2ers.

************************************************** **********
Tables # of games in each cardrooms, with rake amount

This information is collected by many 2+2 participants who lives in many different states. Any correction can be reported to 2+2 or jk90029@yahoo.com for future share by 2+2ers.

1. average number of tables at 9PM seven days. Obviously, more in weekend and less in weekdays.
2. buyin and stake 3.SB&BB 4.Limit or No-Limit 5. pot rake(preflop+postflop+jackpotdrop) or hourly time charge

*)Names of cardrooms (#of poker tables, employees) are ordered from west to east coast.
*)Only mid-limit games are listed, such as no-limit NLHE$200 or higher and limit LHE $5/$10 or higher. For lower limit than that, it may not be worth to play after the huge rake.
*)'$600<buy' implies 'Initial byuins can be at least $600 or $600'.
*) '($2/$5)' implies 'small blind $2 and big blind $5'.
*)'$8/HH' implies '$8 mandatory collection per half hour'.
*)'NFND' implies 'No flop, no drop'. Otherwise, $1 drop at preflop dealt.


Commerce(160, 2400) commercecasino.com $1 increase from January 2007 (323)721-2100 x635
5 tables of $9/$18 LHE, no free meal
5 tables of $20/$40 LHE $8/HH, free meal
4 tables of $40/$80 LHE $9/HH, free meal
8 tables of $200buy ($3/$5) NLHE $1+$3+$1, free meal
10 tables of $400buy ($5/$10) NLHE $1+$4+$1, free meal
3 tables of $600<buy ($10/$20) NLHE $9 per HH, free meal

Bicycle(110, 1700) thebicyclecasino.com (562)806-4646 x545
2 tables of $100buy ($2/$3) NLHE $4+$1, NFND, no free meal
3 tables of $200buy ($3/$5) NLHE $4+$1, NFND, free meal
2 tables of $300<buy<$500 ($5/$5) NLHE $4+$1, NFND, free meal
3 tables of $500<buy ($5/$10) NLHE $4+$1, NFND, free meal

Hollywood Park(108) playhpc.com (310)330-2800 x2119 (800)888-HWP
5 tables of $100buy ($2/$3) NLHE $4+$1, NFND, no free meal
3 tables of $200buy ($3/$5) NLHE $4+$1, NFND, no free meal
3 tables of $400buy ($5/$10) NLHE $4+$1, NFND, no free meal

Hawaiian Garden

Hustler

Phoenix, AZ
NLHE prohibited byb state law

Venetian venetian.com
2 tables of $100<buy<$1000 ($2/$5) NLHE $1 at $10/$20/$50/$90 (up to $4)
1 tables of $800buy ($10/$20) NLHE $7/HH

Bellagio bellagio.com
$200-$500 ($2/$5) NLHE 10% upto$4
$800buy ($10/$20) NLHE $7/HH
$500buy ($30/$60) NLHE $6/HH
$800buy ($40/$80) NLHE $7/HH
$1000buy ($60/$120) NLHE $7/HH

Mirage

Bay 101 bay101.com and Garden City gardencitycasino.com in San Jose, CA
$1 + flat $3

Canterbury Park canterburypark.com/cardclub.aspx
10% up to $5 + $1 jackpot drop
NLHE prohibited by state law

Milwaukee
$4, No jackpot system

Turning Stone turning-stone.com
10% up to $4


Foxwoods(100+ tables) foxwoods.com (203)885-3177 x5374 (800)48POKER
12 tables of $300>buy ($1/$2) NLHE, $5/HH, no free meal Cheap!!!
6 tables of $500>buy ($2/$5) NLHE, no free meal
??? of $10/$20 LHE, $0(preflop) + $2(flop) +$1(pot>$80) + $1(pot>$160), NFND
1 table of $40/$80 LHE

Mohegan Sun mohegansun.com (888)226-7711


Borgata theborgata.com
15 tables of $300buy ($1/$2) NLHE, 10% up to $4, no free meal Cheap!!!
9 tables of $500buy ($2/$5) NLHE, $5/HH, no free meal Cheap!!!
??? of $1500buy ($5/$10) NLHE, $6/HH. no free meal
6 tables of $10/$20 LHE and 5 tables of $20/$40 LHE and 2 tables of $40/$80 LHE

TajMahal (65+ tables) trumptaj.com (609)449-1000 x4746
3 tables of $10/$20 LHE, no free meal
3 tables of $20/$40 LHE, no free meal

Trop tropicana.net (800)257-6227


Hard Rock in Tampa hardrockhotelcasinotampa.com
??? of ($2/$5) NLHE

Kennel Club(22 tables) in Daytona jckcpokerroom.com (850)997-2561 Noon to Midnight, Closed on Sunday
1/2NLHE main game
4 tables of ($2/$5) NLHE, insane game

Brighton Seminole seminolecasinobrighton.com
10% up to $5 + $1 jackpot

Immokalee Seminole theseminolecasino.com
LHE - 10% up to $5 + $1 jackpot drop.
NLHE - 10% up to $6 + $1 jackpot drop.


Aviation Club de France English
€100buy (€2/€4) NLHE €4 for pot=€50 and €6 for pot>€100, plus jackpot drop
€250buy (€5/€5) NLHE €10/HH, plus jackpot drop
€500buy (€5/€10) NLHE €15/HH, without jackpot drop
€200buy €10/€20 LHE €10/HH, plus jackpot drop
€400buy €30/€60 LHE €15/HH, without jackpot drop

Please read this paragraph only if you think the pot rake is NOT a big problem. It is simple to figure out how much a young man shall pay the life-time rake, who began poker at 25 and finish poker 55 and continue playing 1000 hours every year (say, as a regular player) The $5 rake is equivalent to hourly rake of about $25, for estimated 45 hands per hour. He pays $25K per SINGLE year and WILL PAY total $750K in his 30 years of poker life, except his tipping to dealers. Therefore, after Commerce raised from $4 to $5 in January 2007, the young man pay from $600K to $750K as his total life-time rake. So $1 increase shall take $150K more from his asset in his life.
************************************************** **********