Interesting hand?
 

Razz ($3/$6), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.33 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in
Seat 4: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (2.67 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls

5th Street - (3.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

6th Street - (5.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (7.33 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (7.33 BB - $44)

What is your normal plan on 3rd?

Re: Interesting hand?
 

I should just fold

Re: Interesting hand?
 

This hand is not interesting

Re: Interesting hand?
 

876 goes in the muck for me 100% of the time here first to act. Many 87s do. I might make an exception if I have a very low kicker and it's face up, but then I'm completing, not limping. Maybe I could get away with limping if I ever limped anything first in, but I don't, except shorthanded.

Your hand is likely not best on 4th. I do like the opponents you play against though, release and wait for a better spot.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

Seems to me that with four better door cards yet to act, third is a pretty easy fold.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is not interesting

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is, glad you posted it. It's the kind of hand new players need to see and read the responses to and a lot of them don't post. It's a hand it's good for micro players to read so we know sometimes much better players make the same mistakes we do so we don't feel so bad.

For the new-to-Razz player: this is not a three card 8. This is a steal hand and then you hope the bring-in doesn't have A2J.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I could get away with limping if I ever limped anything first in, but I don't, except shorthanded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds backwards...you should (possibly) be limping some in a full game, but never shorthanded.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]

For the new-to-Razz player: this is not a three card 8. This is a steal hand and then you hope the bring-in doesn't have A2J.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is simply not right. 678 is way the favorite over A2J. I guess I might call with A2T so that people won't steal from me, but really, if I raise with a marginal hand I love a call from A2J

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is simply not right. 678 is way the favorite over A2J. I guess I might call with A2T so that people won't steal from me, but really, if I raise with a marginal hand I love a call from A2J

[/ QUOTE ]It's about 2-1 which means the bring-in always has the odds to call when you are the sole raiser. And those are simulator odds - in real play you are about even, I'd guess.

678 is a steal hand.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

You're kind of abusing simulator stats there. If you hold A2J and you are getting 2:1 to call on the flop, it's only worth it if calling will put you all in. The future bets in the hand mean that your *effective* pot odds will be very close to 1:1.

In order to call on 3rd, you need to feel that you have the best hand, or close to it, OR you are getting good enough *immediate* pot odds to warrant out-flopping your opponent, which happens about 1 in 5 times. And with A2J it's even less likely because not only will you need a low card to outflop 678, he'll need to catch something J or higher.

678 is not a steal hand, it's perfectly legitimate hand to play, in later position, against either some mediocre up cards or players that you're better than. It's *NOT* good to play it in early position, against hands of unknown strength, with the possibility that it'll get raised behind you. It's a trap hand, like AT in NLHE, certainly if you raise AT on the button you are not stealing, more like semi-bluffing with possibly the best hand. But limping with AT under the gun is a recipe for disaster.

678 sucks bad here because there are FOUR wheel cards yet to act, all your pair cards are live, and 4 of your wheel outs are gone, and you're drawing to the worst possible 8 or 9

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're kind of abusing simulator stats there. If you hold A2J and you are getting 2:1 to call on the flop, it's only worth it if calling will put you all in. The future bets in the hand mean that your *effective* pot odds will be very close to 1:1.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have no idea how all people who think this way think. (Which is part of my math-blindness.) We don't know what the future bets in the hand will be. This is always a call with the understanding you have to catch to bet or call. About this:

[ QUOTE ]
In order to call on 3rd, you need to feel that you have the best hand, or close to it, OR you are getting good enough *immediate* pot odds to warrant out-flopping your opponent, which happens about 1 in 5 times.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not according to what I've read. You have four possibilities on 4th (or any other street) you catch/he bricks, he catches/you brick, you both catch, you both brick.

So, you have a 25% chance of getting even (you catch, he bricks) a 75% chance of at least improving your own hand (you catch/he catches, you catch/he bricks, you both catch.) Even when you both brick, you might "catch" if that brick is a duplicate of a hole card and he bricks paint.

[ QUOTE ]
And with A2J it's even less likely because not only will you need a low card to outflop 678, he'll need to catch something J or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]I need an 8. Any 9 or higher is a brick for him.

[ QUOTE ]
678 is not a steal hand, it's perfectly legitimate hand to play, in later position, against either some mediocre up cards or players that you're better than.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, it sucks tidewater. Any other 8 has you. Any other 87 has you.

(You know, Rusty, if you and I didn't disagree so much there'd only be three posts a week on Razz around here. Keep 'em coming!)

Re: Interesting hand?
 

This is my dummy guide to this problem (because I am in fact a dummy):

I hate 678. I really hate it when three 2s and a 5 are showing.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how all people who think this way think. (Which is part of my math-blindness.) We don't know what the future bets in the hand will be. This is always a call with the understanding you have to catch to bet or call.

[/ QUOTE ]
The hands being 2:1 is under the assumptions that the hands are shown down. Since you have a way inferior hand with A2J you need to catch really good (i.e. the person with 678 must also catch bad) to be able to continue to play the hand after 4th, with your own (bolded) strategy. You will have to fold 4th so often that you are not getting odds to call here as the bring-in with A2J.

Rusty put the same thing in a different way. You are 1:2 to win the hand with A2J. So you have pot odds to call and see the hand down if the completion of the bring-in is the final money you have to put into the hand. However, to see the hand down you usually have to call a bet on every street, and the bring-in + antes already in the pot makes a very small amount compared to calling down a bet on every street. So you actually don't have pot odds to make the call.

[ QUOTE ]

Not according to what I've read. You have four possibilities on 4th (or any other street) you catch/he bricks, he catches/you brick, you both catch, you both brick.

So, you have a 25% chance of getting even (you catch, he bricks) a 75% chance of at least improving your own hand (you catch/he catches, you catch/he bricks, you both catch.) Even when you both brick, you might "catch" if that brick is a duplicate of a hole card and he bricks paint.


[/ QUOTE ]
Your analysis assumes that you will want to keep calling with A2J vs 678 if you both catch good or bad, which you don't unless you want to put your money in bad. However, if you don't want to put your money in bad you won't put it in with A2J in the first place.

I don't know what to tell you, it is extremely intuitive that 678 is in a good spot against A2J, and I don't understand why you don't feel this way.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's the kind of hand new players need to see and read the responses to and a lot of them don't post. It's a hand it's good for micro players to read so we know sometimes much better players make the same mistakes we do so we don't feel so bad.

For the new-to-Razz player: this is not a three card 8. This is a steal hand and then you hope the bring-in doesn't have A2J.

[/ QUOTE ]

ftw

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what to tell you, it is extremely intuitive that 678 is in a good spot against A2J, and I don't understand why you don't feel this way.

[/ QUOTE ] It's mathmatical that it's good, IMO. It's intuitive that it sucks. You win at the top, you lose at the bottom.

In 678 the top is full. You can't make it better unless you catch 432A. If you get a 4/3-2-A you are likely to get trapped betting the hand. The A2 is the best bottom anyone can have. The J is a discard. Any hand the J makes is going to beat you. Any other 8 and all the other hands.

The J is going to fold faster, take fewer chances, and get paid off better. The 678 is going to win more pots over the long haul and lose more money. The A2J is going to win fewer pots in the long run but against hands like 678 they will be significantly larger.

But it's just a matter of style, as I keep pointing out. You should play it the way it makes sense to you. You might need him to catch bad to continue, I do not.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]

The J is going to fold faster, take fewer chances, and get paid off better. The 678 is going to win more pots over the long haul and lose more money. The A2J is going to win fewer pots in the long run but against hands like 678 they will be significantly larger.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't disagree with this, exactly, but I don't care which one wins more pots, or larger pots. Which one makes more money?

And actually I think A2J's vulnerability extends beyond the fact that it's a crappy hand. The problem is, it's pretty much face up. Sure, depending on the player it might be 23J 24J 25J 34J 35J and even some 6s and 7s, but if he catches low cards my only question is, did he pair. If I have 678, and my 6 is up (I'd prefer that it is, but against a J up I'll take any of the cards up) then A2J is going to be guessing an awful lot as to the strength of my holding.

I know you keep saying "you win at the top and lose at the bottom" but it's just an aphorism. It isn't exactly distilled truth. If we could arrange it, I'd meet you at a heads up table and have them deal you XXJ where XX are 2 wheel cards, and have them give me 678 every time. That's not a statement of my estimation of my skill vs. yours, I'd take that wager with any razz player I consider within my league (sorry, SG, TT, etc need not apply)

Re: Interesting hand?
 

Actually, I like you with 678 vs. anyone with A2J. A lot.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I like you with 678 vs. anyone with A2J. A lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's silly, I'm awful.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I like you with 678 vs. anyone with A2J. A lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's silly, I'm awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd have to be really epically bad to lose in this spot HU. Maybe not forgetting-what-game-it-is bad, but at least not-knowing-when-a-draw-is-ahead-on-fifth bad.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

I'm your huckleberry

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know you keep saying "you win at the top and lose at the bottom" but it's just an aphorism. It isn't exactly distilled truth.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let me rephrase. "Good players win at the top and lose at the bottom." And I do believe if you researched your own results you would see it is "distillable."

678 is just not a playable hand except in special circumstances. Like every card showing is a 9 or worse. Or you are stealing. And it's a crappy steal hand. I never said A2J was better - but on the whole I'd rather be the bring-in you are stealing from than holding 678.

Let's say you have (86)7 vs my xxJ and the hand goes like this:

8673
xxJ6

Are you betting? I am calling.

86739
xxJ68

I will bet or raise here.

867394
xxJ685

I'm still calling. I might raise if you take your time deciding. I would think you might have me beat - or maybe not. If I know you play 8s, I have that noted. But I have the draw. I might have the hand right now. I might not. But this isn't about me and my Jack - it's about you not having an exit from this hand. If you get an A or a 2, you can make that 7 and beat me if I don't get a 4 or a 3.

The problem is, when you are in a steal position, I will not give you credit for much better than a 9 or 8. I might even consider that I have the better hand. When your 678 becomes very marginal, you won't get an A2J to fold, you'll have to keep putting money in. I'd say it's high time we both caught a brick. Let's see what happens then:

867394J
xxJ685x<--it's a Q

What do you think you'd think? Would you really put an anonymous opponent on A2 in the hole? When you have gone so far you will call when I bet? When are you laying down 87643 on the river?

See, it isn't about probabilities here; this hand simply does not play well. Having a big brick is great, it provides a lot of getting out options when you catch more small cards. The J is going to lose less more often and win more less often. But it is very likely to win a lot more.

It's pretty standard in Razz to call when you are the bring-in with some good cards in the hole and there is only one raiser. There must be a reason for that.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty standard in Razz to call when you are the bring-in with some good cards in the hole and there is only one raiser. There must be a reason for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's because people are bad players. You can call if you think your opponent is stealing (no, not with an 8 low, but with another paint card in his hand). I don't know if I think it's worth it, because you have no way of knowing.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

Please close this thread

Calling a blatant steal attempt with A2J vs xx8 is reasonable. If I complete my xx8 in the situation shown, you should ALWAYS fold, without question, no dicussion yada yada.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

Yes, if you call me with a J I am going to put you on 2 small cards. Not neccessarily A2 but as long as I don't think you have a 7 or a pair I know I'm behind. No I am not going to bet 6th in your example. I might not even bet 5th. Why? Because I know my odds in these situations. Yes, I am probably going to call you down (because I have the odds to do so)

But your example doesn't prove a thing, because it's practically the remotest case possible.

Oh, and your call on 4th is pretty bad, too. You're still a 2:1 underdog.

[ QUOTE ]

It's pretty standard in Razz to call when you are the bring-in with some good cards in the hole and there is only one raiser. There must be a reason for that.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's because you're getting good enough immediate odds to outflop them (on full tilt, but not on poker stars), if you combine the chances that they have a legitmate hand with the chances they are stealing.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

If playing eights gets you to generally give this much action, then I'm certainly doing it. If you're raising fifth in this spot, you're also doing it when I have (A6) and you're a 2:1 underdog.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But your example doesn't prove a thing, because it's practically the remotest case possible.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, in a random possibility game, every case is as remote a possible case as every other one. I was only illustrating that it's easy to get trapped by such a hand. Whether or not a hand is likely to win if all seven cards are dealt to both players is something a simulator tells you. But how a hand plays is at least as important, IMO, in determining what I'm doing with it on 3rd.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Well, in a random possibility game, every case is as remote a possible case as every other one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly my point. Except, the types of cases where A2J must either fold or incorrectly call are more numerous than the types you outline above. About twice as numerous. I really don't know what to say except maybe get out a deck of cards, deal out A2J vs 678 and remove 5 or 6 random dead cards (for the other player's up cards) and then start dealing 4ths 5ths etc and see what you'd do in each case, whether or not you'd like your hand.

Re: Interesting hand?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't know what to say except maybe get out a deck of cards, deal out A2J vs 678 and remove 5 or 6 random dead cards (for the other player's up cards) and then start dealing 4ths 5ths etc and see what you'd do in each case, whether or not you'd like your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I play Razz, Rusty. I'm already doing that every day - in "praxis." (Hence, obviously, the name) So are you, playing. More than I am, I am sure. Neither of us is posting our take on this hand through wild speculation. We just play differently. I like the way I play this just fine.

I fold all 87s unless on a steal or facing only 9 or worse on the board. I fold 'em all.

No wait - that's a lie. I once played 874 on a board with two 8s and a 7 and a bunch of paint. The 7 called. I won, too. A big pot, come to think of it. The 7 caught the case 8 on 4th and made a 876.

Anyway, I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying: neither am I.