Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

Larussa has gone back to hitting pitcher 8th like he did one year in an effort to get McGwire more at bats. He says he like to have Pujols bat in the first inning and likes to have 3 real hitters in front of him. Im not sure if this has been posted before but what do people think about this strategy? How about if a mananger starting batting a pitcher who can hit 6th or 7th ? Has anyone done this recently on a regular basis ?(I know dontrell willis hit 7th a few times a few years back) I know its not going to continue at this rate but Micah Owens is absolutely crushing the ball. In the event that he doesnt have much of an offesnive dropoff is there any reason why he shouldnt bat ealier in the lineup?

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

Lineup construction matters very little in the grand scheme of things. Batting the pitcher 2nd might be a problem; batting him 8th probably isn't.

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Micah Owings was an awesome hitter in college, so I guess it is possible for him to not be the worst hitter in his lineup every now and then.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

As Kyle said, it has little relevance, but I think BP did a piece a few years back and it was postulated that the optimum lineup construction would have the pitcher, or worst hitter, batting as far as possible away from the best hitter, which would be 8th, as the best hitter should bat 3rd in order to gain slightly more at-bats in the 3rd hole rather the 4th.

I'll see if I can find it, but I'm sure someone around here has the article on speed dial.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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Micah Owings was an awesome hitter in college, so I guess it is possible for him to not be the worst hitter in his lineup every now and then.

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I'm still fairly shocked he was drafted as a pitcher. I heard that scouts weren't convinced of him having a wood bat swing, but jesus he's doing a hell of a job proving that wrong.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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As Kyle said, it has little relevance, but I think BP did a piece a few years back and it was postulated that the optimum lineup construction would have the pitcher, or worst hitter, batting as far as possible away from the best hitter, which would be 8th, as the best hitter should bat 3rd in order to gain slightly more at-bats in the 3rd hole rather the 4th.

I'll see if I can find it, but I'm sure someone around here has the article on speed dial.

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This is true. The lineup analyzer (Google for it) indicates this is accurate as well. I used it for my Little League lineups occasionally. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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Micah Owings was an awesome hitter in college, so I guess it is possible for him to not be the worst hitter in his lineup every now and then.

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I'm still fairly shocked he was drafted as a pitcher. I heard that scouts weren't convinced of him having a wood bat swing, but jesus he's doing a hell of a job proving that wrong.

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Yeah, occasionally kids with metal bat / high school swings can do pretty well. There's never a question about power, but the ability to hit for average. Garrett Atkins is a good example of this.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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Micah Owings was an awesome hitter in college, so I guess it is possible for him to not be the worst hitter in his lineup every now and then.

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I'm still fairly shocked he was drafted as a pitcher. I heard that scouts weren't convinced of him having a wood bat swing, but jesus he's doing a hell of a job proving that wrong.

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Yeah, occasionally kids with metal bat / high school swings can do pretty well. There's never a question about power, but the ability to hit for average. Garrett Atkins is a good example of this.

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His current clip is sustainable of course, don't you think? Mostly kidding of course, but assuming he hits at a strong rate into next season do you think the Dbacks ever consider making him any type of position player? Or is his arm simply more valuable? Again, this is assuming this isn't just complete variance, and he shows that he can hit over a decent sample size.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

isn't owings' OPS better than several of the d'backs everyday guys?

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

Kevin Goldstein talked about this awhile ago, but it was about Josh Hamilton instead of Micah Owings. Hamilton routinely hit 96 mph with his fastball in high school and completed his senior year with a 0.00 ERA. The consensus is that to simply be in the big leagues doing one thing was hard enough; to be an actual two-way star would be next to impossible.

Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, though. That being said, injury risk to a pitcher who is also playing OF on his offdays has to be pretty severe.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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Kevin Goldstein talked about this awhile ago, but it was about Josh Hamilton instead of Micah Owings. Hamilton routinely hit 96 mph with his fastball in high school and completed his senior year with a 0.00 ERA. The consensus is that to simply be in the big leagues doing one thing was hard enough; to be an actual two-way star would be next to impossible.

Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, though. That being said, injury risk to a pitcher who is also playing OF on his offdays has to be pretty severe.

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I remember hearing that about Hamilton (and Greg Toe Nash), but if you can make an educated guess, IYO where is Owings more valuable:on the mound or in the field?

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

It's harder to be a starting pitcher than it is to be a position player, so I'd have to say a pitcher. I'm familiar with Owings and his ability to hit, but a league average starting pitcher is worth a lot of money (as evidenced by the Gil Meche/Ted Lilly deals in the offseason).

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

Owens has no plate discipline, and a tiny sample size of 55 at bats. Also, what position could he play even decently defensively?

I would say converting him to a hitter would be retarded, but using him on an NL team as an SP/#1 or 2 pinch hitter would be optimal.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

Yeah, using him as your pinch hitter for platoon situations is probably the best case scenario. See also: Jason Marquis.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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Owens has no plate discipline, and a tiny sample size of 55 at bats. Also, what position could he play even decently defensively?

I would say converting him to a hitter would be retarded, but using him on an NL team as an SP/#1 or 2 pinch hitter would be optimal.

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Makes sense

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

I have to disagree. Has Ankiel's season taught you guys nothing? Why would you guys keep a medicore pitcher when you could have a solid, top-of-the-lineup hitter?<font color="white">lawl leveled</font>

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

How much do league average pitchers get paid?

How much do low-patience, poor fielding, okay sluggers get paid?

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

Ankiel's fielding is actually not too bad.

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Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

I dont even nessasarily mean that he'll be converted but see no reason he should bat ninth if he continues to hit.
I could see them letting him dh in an al park. I just dont see the point in lumping a good hitter who happens to be a pitcher in a group with the typical terrible hitting pitchers. For example it used to drive me crazy when Colorado would pinch hit for Mike Hamton (or have him sac bunt with a man on 1st and one out) with some 230 light hitting worthless player who was a worse hitter than Hampton (usually this was in the 4th inning since hampton got rocked so often)

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

I'm talking about Owings here, not Ankiel. Ankiel is not a pitcher anymore, anyway.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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I dont even nessasarily mean that he'll be converted but see no reason he should bat ninth if he continues to hit.
I could see them letting him dh in an al park. I just dont see the point in lumping a good hitter who happens to be a pitcher in a group with the typical terrible hitting pitchers. For example it used to drive me crazy when Colorado would pinch hit for Mike Hamton (or have him sac bunt with a man on 1st and one out) with some 230 light hitting worthless player who was a worse hitter than Hampton (usually this was in the 4th inning since hampton got rocked so often)

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Right, this is fine. Owings was a studly hitter in college, and takes great pride in keeping up with his skills. Some pitchers don't give a [censored] and just practice bunting. Owings could be used in all pinch hitting / platoon situations or DH opportunities during interleague play. Making him a two-way star is probably a good way to get him injured, and a league average starter is worth a lot more than a league average corner outfielder.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

probably wouldn't hurt to work out owings in the field just in case. even if you just played him once a week he could be a useful platoon guy without too much risk.

would be much lower risk if he bombed as a starter and got moved to the pen, but he'll probably be ok as a SP.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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As Kyle said, it has little relevance, but I think BP did a piece a few years back and it was postulated that the optimum lineup construction would have the pitcher, or worst hitter, batting as far as possible away from the best hitter, which would be 8th, as the best hitter should bat 3rd in order to gain slightly more at-bats in the 3rd hole rather the 4th.

I'll see if I can find it, but I'm sure someone around here has the article on speed dial.

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BP demonstrated that the best hitter should hit 3rd? Huh, I always assumed that the best hitter should be hitting first and the only reason they never do is the same reason that a bunch of other stupid things happen in baseball. I assumed that the extra 20-30 ABs over the course of the season would more than make up for any sort of advantage of hitting with guys on more often.

EDIT: I meant PAs not ABs.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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Kevin Goldstein talked about this awhile ago, but it was about Josh Hamilton instead of Micah Owings. Hamilton routinely hit 96 mph with his fastball in high school and completed his senior year with a 0.00 ERA. The consensus is that to simply be in the big leagues doing one thing was hard enough; to be an actual two-way star would be next to impossible.

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Wasn't this the case with Tim Hudson also?

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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BP demonstrated that the best hitter should hit 3rd? Huh, I always assumed that the best hitter should be hitting first and the only reason they never do is the same reason that a bunch of other stupid things happen in baseball.

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One it's own, that's right, but also factoring in that you want your worst hitter as far away in the lineup as possible...ie the Pitcher....then to hit the top guy leadoff, you'd need to bat the pitcher 6th.

All things considered, the 3rd/8th spots for best/worst are a better tradeoff than 1st/6th.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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BP demonstrated that the best hitter should hit 3rd? Huh, I always assumed that the best hitter should be hitting first and the only reason they never do is the same reason that a bunch of other stupid things happen in baseball.

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One it's own, that's right, but also factoring in that you want your worst hitter as far away in the lineup as possible...ie the Pitcher....then to hit the top guy leadoff, you'd need to bat the pitcher 6th.

All things considered, the 3rd/8th spots for best/worst are a better tradeoff than 1st/6th.

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Ah, I see. Thats cool.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

I thought The Book recommended your best two hitters in the 2nd and 4th spots while the pitcher is "optimal" in the 8th spot, though it doesn't really have a great effect.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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I thought The Book recommended your best two hitters in the 2nd and 4th spots while the pitcher is "optimal" in the 8th spot, though it doesn't really have a great effect.

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Yeah, the "best" (OBP weighted) hitter hits 2nd. Your cleanup hitter is a high-slugging guy who doesn't necessarily walk much.

Then there's the effect of hitting a lefty second in the lineup for hit and run plays and stealing and blah blah blah boring minutia that is only exciting to coaches. I think it's interesting and I employ it when I coach Little League (and will at the HS level) but otherwise it's not relevant.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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I thought The Book recommended your best two hitters in the 2nd and 4th spots while the pitcher is "optimal" in the 8th spot, though it doesn't really have a great effect.

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Yeah, the "best" (OBP weighted) hitter hits 2nd. Your cleanup hitter is a high-slugging guy who doesn't necessarily walk much.

Then there's the effect of hitting a lefty second in the lineup for hit and run plays and stealing and blah blah blah boring minutia that is only exciting to coaches. I think it's interesting and I employ it when I coach Little League (and will at the HS level) but otherwise it's not relevant.

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I think most of this forum finds it pretty interesting

never thought about the left batting second thing before

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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I have to disagree. Has Ankiel's season taught you guys nothing? Why would you guys keep a medicore pitcher when you could have a solid, top-of-the-lineup hitter?<font color="white">lawl leveled</font>

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When did Ankiel become a solid, top-of-the-lineup hitter? The guy hit .267/.314/.568 at AAA this year. His solid MLB numbers are due to a high BABIP in a small sample. The guy is a 4th outfielder who should be made into a Brooks Kieschnick type.

Re: Batting The Pitcher 8th
 

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I thought The Book recommended your best two hitters in the 2nd and 4th spots while the pitcher is "optimal" in the 8th spot, though it doesn't really have a great effect.

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Yeah, the "best" (OBP weighted) hitter hits 2nd. Your cleanup hitter is a high-slugging guy who doesn't necessarily walk much.

Then there's the effect of hitting a lefty second in the lineup for hit and run plays and stealing and blah blah blah boring minutia that is only exciting to coaches. I think it's interesting and I employ it when I coach Little League (and will at the HS level) but otherwise it's not relevant.

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I think most of this forum finds it pretty interesting

never thought about the left batting second thing before

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Constructing a lineup of righty/lefty/righty/lefty scenarios is ideal for managers because it allows you to minimize platoon splits vs. pitchers and to maximize "smallball" plays like stealing and hit and run plays. With a man on second and a left-handed hitter in the box, singles to right field turn into 1st/3rd situations more often than singles to left, and more effective hit and run plays can be employed. Right-handed catchers (virtually all of them) have tougher times throwing out runners with a left-handed hitter in their way and as such have to adjust to this.

The other in-game management stuff are basically automatic things that most people know just by watching the games - employing a shift vs. pull-heavy power hitters, picking the right times to intentionally walk or sacrifice, stealing signs and concealing them with a runner on second, using defensive calls from the catcher to call for slide steps on high-probability steal attempts but not wanting to waste a ball on a pitchout, putting a late swing on a ball intentionally to distract a catcher attempting to throw out a runner, etc. Well, some of that stuff is intuitive; I guess a lot of it requires serious analysis of in-game processes that a lot of posters might not do when they watch the games since they aren't actually participating. It's all stuff you learn pretty fast when you play at the high school or higher level, though.