This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

Villian is 19/15, fairly straight forward tag. We have about 400 hands together, she should have me at about 21/17.

Hero - $49
Villian - covers

FTP NL $50 (6 players)

Preflop:
Hero is dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1.75, Button raises to $6</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $21, Button raises all in to $54.75</font>, Hero calls

her 3 bet range pre should be 1010+, AJ+, after I 4 bet and she shoves, I'd say QQ+, AK+. I used to just call instead of 4 betting pre, but playing AK OOP in a 3 bet pot when I'm not the aggresor is gross. This hand may be uber standard but I've been running bad and am questioning some of the moves I make.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

ummm is this standard? in tournaments i'd go broke all day long with AKo but in a cash game? i'd say 3bet to 18 fold to the push, because many people don't even shove with QQ - phil gordon says the fourth bet is always aces. In my experience it's almost always aces or kings, which means you're almost always dominated with AK. a tiny percentage of the time it might be QQ, but you're still an underdog there. Not a good call in my opinion.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

standard

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

I think it's profitable, especially because you are going to be OOP for the rest of the hand. I don't have Pokerstove here but you had to call $28 (effective) to win $70, which is 2.5-1 and, for example, you are 2.3-1 if he holds KK

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

i dont mind 4betting a standard tag here if hes seen you raise a lot in LP, since he doesnt have to have a hand...once you 4bet you must call his shove, so pretty standard against many opponents...passives i wont 4-bet

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

i hate those spots especially

[ QUOTE ]
Hero raises to $1.75, Button raises to $6

[/ QUOTE ]

against a tag like villian i really dont know what to do (+ beeing oop) most of the time but i think your reraise is good (maybe 18$ are enough)


[ QUOTE ]
Button raises all in to $54.75, Hero calls

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the point when thinks are getting ugly ... i dont see myself calling vs such a tag and you can narrow his range almost to AA/KK ...


But since you' have 22$ left so you should just call (i dont think we can fold here?! ... what about not 4-betting preflop?! .. damn im just confused by AKo here)

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

we cant fold once we 4bet, since i dont see him folding QQ or even AK there

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.824% 18.14% 20.68% 78295380 89232168.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 61.176% 40.50% 20.68% 174740892 89232168.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

Looks standard to me.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

It's standard but I hate it.

Does anyone prefer cc the 3 bet and playing post flop oop (hit or fold?)

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

I'm happy to call the 3-bet and play a flop. I don't see how its that difficult to play against a TAG. If you miss you fold since you are nearly always behind if they c-bet. And if you hit, its a question of choosing the best line to get stacks in.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm happy to call the 3-bet and play a flop. I don't see how its that difficult to play against a TAG. If you miss you fold since you are nearly always behind if they c-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? I'll 3bet 97s here and then c-bet QT4r

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm happy to call the 3-bet and play a flop. I don't see how its that difficult to play against a TAG. If you miss you fold since you are nearly always behind if they c-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? I'll 3bet 97s here and then c-bet QT4r

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, cause assuming AZ is playing standard tag stats, theyre prime to 3bet with weaker hands, since you know that they know that youre playing tight, and with your tag image its not easy to put you on crap and then it turns into an i know that you know that i know thing any farther than that.

i almost confused myself with that...but yea 4bet/call shove. and of course its not always like that explained above

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm happy to call the 3-bet and play a flop. I don't see how its that difficult to play against a TAG. If you miss you fold since you are nearly always behind if they c-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding? I'll 3bet 97s here and then c-bet QT4r

[/ QUOTE ]

Really it depends on the 3-betting range of my opponents. If we are talking about someone who 3 bets with 97s and c-bets almost any flop then I'm playing it different than against a more predictable opponent.

I think perhaps I used the term TAG incorrectly in my previous post. I was talking more about the ABC which is different to TAG.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

100% standard as long as u r doin this with QQ+

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

i don't get it - what's wrong w/ just calling the 3-bet pre-flop and getting it all in on an A or K flop? Once you 4-bet villain, she's only gonna call/shove w/ a *very* tight range. You are basically turning your AK into a bluff by 4-betting pf vs. a TAG villain.

Once you 4-bet and villain shoves you are way behind her range. AA,KK make up a big part of her range, with slight percentages for QQ/AK. So fold.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

If you do the math, once you 4bet you just about have odds to call even if his range is just KK/AA. Depending on your 4bet amount and if you add in AK/QQ even half the time, you must call his 5bet.

Calling his 3bet oop is pretty bad for the following reasons:

a)you're simply ahead of alot of his range
b)you're going to get alot of coinflip hands to fold
c)You're going to miss the flop too often to make calling profitable, if your plan is to cf.
d)Even if you do hit, you don't necessarily get his stack depending on how lightly he is 3betting and stacking off.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

It balances your play with QQ+. It doesn't give his suited connector or w/e he's got a chance to hit something. And probably most importantly you can fold out hands that are beating you: 77-JJ and AK will fold to your 4bet a large portion of the time. BTW if you just call and hit a K or A you won't win much at all if anything more from these hands.

And AKo has got ~31% equity vs QQ+....easily odds to call if he 5bet shoves. If he just calls your 4bet then you can check fold if you miss or get it in if you hit a hand.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
i don't get it - what's wrong w/ just calling the 3-bet pre-flop and getting it all in on an A or K flop?

[/ QUOTE ]wut hands is villian planning on stacking off on the flop that is A or K high that we beat?!?!? not to mention that we r oop here and will have a tough time to play the hand profitably.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

hero is a 4-1 dog if we narrow villain's range to KK+, definitely not enough equity to call. We can add in AK/QQ, but I would put this as a much smaller part of her range.

and about your following points:
[ QUOTE ]

a)you're simply ahead of alot of his range


[/ QUOTE ]
you may be right, but like i said above, 4-betting will fold out all of those hands that you beat and get calls from those that have you crushed.

[ QUOTE ]

b)you're going to get alot of coinflip hands to fold


[/ QUOTE ]
According to OP, villain's range will be TT+, AJ+. The hands that we have crushed, AJ/AQ most likely will fold, so only TT/JJ are the two hands that we most likely will fold out that we are coinflips to. I dunno about the math on how often they will have these hands, but there are many more combinations of AJ and AQ than there are of TT/JJ.

[ QUOTE ]

c)You're going to miss the flop too often to make calling profitable, if your plan is to cf.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain's 3-betting range is pretty tight. According to OP, she is not going to be doing this w/ 98s. We have to assume that if we don't have an A or K on the flop, then we are beat most of the time. In addition, if an A does flop, then we can usually stack the AJ or AQ.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

hero is getting laid 3:1 odds on the 5bet. Given that we're a 4:1 dog in the tighest, worst, most conservative of circumstances, that extra bit of odds easily gets made up by the times you see AK/QQ or worse. If you disagree with this then there's nothing I can do to prove it.

As for the rest of the stuff...I want you to take a look at the 3bet range you provided. I don't even agree with that range, but we'll use it anyways. TT+, AJ+. We are even or ahead of the vast majority of that range...but yet you want to call and c/f? Do you not see how that's terrible?

There is also nothing that says AJ is going to stack off postflop, and I highly doubt that it's even close to the 3betting range.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

4bet/call seems totally standard to me. Also, I think folding to the 3bet is better than calling, unless you fancy yourself good enough to outplay him OOP. Calling to c/f if you whiff is really bad, though.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

just to clarify, Villian is fairly abc, but she definatly knows my range for a cutoff raise is really wide(I'm 31/25 from the CO). I haven't seen her get out of line and 1010+/AJ is her standard range but it's not like she never will 3 bet with JTs. I'd say you can probably give 10% of her range to random hands like SC's, smaller pairs, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, if an A does flop, then we can usually stack the AJ or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't necessarily say this is true against this particular player.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
just to clarify, Villian is fairly abc, but she definatly knows my range for a cutoff raise is really wide(I'm 31/25 from the CO). I haven't seen her get out of line and 1010+/AJ is her standard range but it's not like she never will 3 bet with JTs. I'd say you can probably give 10% of her range to random hands like SC's, smaller pairs, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was just going to ask about this. against a positionally aware villain, a 4bet here is in order.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

at nl50 this sucks as most villains are way too tight with their 3betting, and even if they are aggressive have TT+, AQ+ as their range. QQ+ AK is more likely at microstakes, and you are way behind this range.

on a table where people are playing well this is standard though.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

It sucks but I take your line. Shove it in and suckout on KK ftw!

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
We are even or ahead of the vast majority of that range...but yet you want to call and c/f? Do you not see how that's terrible?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're still not addressing the point that a 4-bet by hero will fold out any hands we beat. Maybe c/f'ing is wrong on the flop, but I still think a 4-bet is wrong in this instance. Also, villain's 3-bet range was set by OP, not me.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

is a normal 4bet better than a push here? I mean if we're not folding to a 5 bet anyways why not push? when I do 4bet its usually a shove.

And I 4bet AKo all day here. I usually just cram it though

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

I flat it preflop. You play fit or fold, position or no position - whats the difference? Not to mention I see tools 3betting UTG openings with AQ and AJ all the time.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
I flat it preflop. You play fit or fold, position or no position - whats the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well first off just all the time playing fit or fold with AK sucks. Sometimes when you call his 3bet you let him c-bet and shove as a bluff with 2 overs. Note: That's only when villian has a fairly wide 3bet range and like always c-bets.


And now the difference: you call his 3bet. Flop comes K or A high. If you're in position:

Flop: He c-bets and you call.
Turn: He may check or bet. You check or call.
River: If he checked flop and you checked behind he may check here again in which case you bet and maybe get a call from QQ or JJ. He also may bet again in which case you shove.


OOP:
You call his 3bet and go to the flop where you hit an A or a K.

Flop: You check, he c-bets, you c/r and he folds so instead you just call.
Turn: You check. He checks.
River: I guess you have to bet here right, but now it's taking away a chance for him to fire again.



Basically if you're in position you give your opponent more chances to make a mistake by betting and you get to act last so you can put that last bet in just in case he doesn't.



And that's just looking at when you hit. Most TAG's will like always c-bet especially when you check to them so if you miss you always have to give it up. In position sometimes you'll get checked to. Also sometimes it will be worthwhile to float and sometimes as I said to shove as a bluff.


Lately I've actually wondered a little if it might be better to 4bet AK in position most of the time too. I have not been thinking about just calling with AK OOP.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

No. I check. He bets. I push. He calls AT. Profit. Sometimes I peel when I miss, read dependent. You miss that AQ,AJ,KQ is the biggest part of his range. The times I fold to a worse hand are well worth the times I stack a dominated hand. Thats assuming a reasonable 3bet range. If he starts doing it deliberately to my EP opening indicating he does this with 96s, I will start 4betting with most of my range. But not until I am convinced.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. I check. He bets. I push. He calls AT. Profit. Sometimes I peel when I miss, read dependent. You miss that AQ,AJ,KQ is the biggest part of his range. The times I fold to a worse hand are well worth the times I stack a dominated hand. Thats assuming a reasonable 3bet range. If he starts doing it deliberately to my EP opening indicating he does this with 96s, I will start 4betting with most of my range. But not until I am convinced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so pot is 12, you check he bets 9 and you shove making pot 65 and he has to call 35. What 19/15 decent TAG is making that call with AT, or even AJ for that matter? They'd prolly take a little while to call with AQ even....and some players might sometimes find a fold with it.



And btw I'd think that the villian's 3betting range is pretty much always gonna be much wider than what wa sstated in the OP here.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

ok question: if we raise to a smaller $ on the 4 bet say $16 or $18, it would be better to fold to a shove since it narrows to aa/kk no?

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok question: if we raise to a smaller $ on the 4 bet say $16 or $18, it would be better to fold to a shove since it narrows to aa/kk no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if we make it only 16 and he shoves we're getting ~2 to 1. So yea we're dead to AA/KK. But if you throw in QQ and two AKs options then we got odds to call.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

I guess this is why 3 bet/4bet software is getting to be essential. I am sure for vast majority you will probably get more flat calls after a 4 bet with ak and qq than you would pushes.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

Decent tags 3betting UTG opening with those hands?
People folding TP in 3bet pots?

Where is that owl picture [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But its not the point. Depends on my image, flop texture and other things. Reraise is good, a call may be fine too.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

im not reading this entire thread. But it seems to be getting controversial.

I am sure if you do the math the EV is very slight in one direction or another.

However I feel meta game makes up for this if it is -EV. 4betting sends a message. If he folds, he may stop 3betting so light. If he shoves. We showdown AK and he begins to open up his calling range against us when we get in these situations. Showing down AK here might add JJ/1010 to his 5bet shoving range which is a good thing.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

[ QUOTE ]
Decent tags 3betting UTG opening with those hands?
People folding TP in 3bet pots?

Where is that owl picture [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

But its not the point. Depends on my image, flop texture and other things. Reraise is good, a call may be fine too.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off Hero opened the CO, not UTG and the villian is the button so I bet his 3betting range is kinda wide and the better he is the wider it gets. I can be seen to 3bet all kinds of hands in villian's spot this hand.



And yes people will fold TP in 3bet pots. They pretty much will never fold TPTK with AK but yea TP can be folded.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

The metagame aspects whyzze mentioned are also good points.

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

fwiw villian in this hand is KittyGirl87 for you ftp 50 regs

Re: This is my standard, but is it spew? AK pre flop, NL $50 6m
 

Apologies. Somehow I thought we were EP. In this case his range can be really wild, I like a 4bet.