What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

This one is for the people with huge PT databases, hundreds of thousands of hands. I'm looking for a consensus on what hands people lose the most bets with. Seven deuce is the worst hand but obviously it doesn't lose the most money because people almost always fold it. I'm looking for the hand (or possibly group of hands) that consistently cost people the most money in no limit hold'em. Anything that people with large PT databases are kind enough to share would be greatly appreciated.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

AJo

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

I have a hard time believing it is anything that people VPIP with. The winrates on [censored] like 23o would be -.125ptbb/hand, I really dont see how people can play so bad with stuff like AJo to approach that kind of rate.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a hard time believing it is anything that people VPIP with. The winrates on [censored] like 23o would be -.125ptbb/hand, I really dont see how people can play so bad with stuff like AJo to approach that kind of rate.

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this might be true for a lot of winning players, but certainly not for losing players

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

Ummm...I think AJo was a joke. But yeah, the question in OP is pretty stupid I think cause it depends on your post flop skill and stuff.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

T9o is my biggest loser.
Second is AK, obv. i suck at coinflips.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

Obviously it's not going to be the same for every person. I'm just looking for an overall representation of the poker-playing population, if such a thing is possible. And I'm sure there will be hands that lose more than 72o or 32o because most players are losing players and it's not because they play 72o differently than the winning players.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a hard time believing it is anything that people VPIP with. The winrates on [censored] like 23o would be -.125ptbb/hand, I really dont see how people can play so bad with stuff like AJo to approach that kind of rate.

[/ QUOTE ]

this might be true for a lot of winning players, but certainly not for losing players

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I thought hundreds of thousands of hands implied winning player.

I guess he is talking about reef/fgators?

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

1. LOL, that was funny Imsa
2. while most players are loosing players most posters on this site are winning players so your logic doesnt hold BIG NICE

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

JTs

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

sc's utg

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

just because a hand is -ev doesn't mean you shouldn't play it.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

my db says for me its 86s followed by 65s. Not a big enough sample for it to be meaningfull (75k hands) but not surprising.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

J3o, 54s, 64s

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

T9s for me

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

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just because a hand is -ev doesn't mean you shouldn't play it.

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agreed. in a sense, shania etc mean that all hands are worth the same.

in terms of whats the worst in a pt db, for me the top bunch are all sc's

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

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64s

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qfmft

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

OMG ITS A BIG NIGE

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

ato

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

AQJJT9 triple suited

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

67s for me, followed by 77.

Clearly need work on playing 7x.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

i can play any hand +EV bc of how good iam

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

498K hands in current database, and the winner is... 44! lol.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
498K hands in current database, and the winner is... 44! lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

lrn2play plz [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
498K hands in current database, and the winner is... 44! lol.

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learn to get oversetted less plz [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

If you want a large enough sample that it's actually meaningful to discuss the almost negligible difference in win rates between two similarly bad hands you probably need millions of hands, if not tens or hundreds of millions.

Presumably a player with that large a database is going to have stopped playing losing hands long ago, only playing those losing hands as steals. Eventually the only differences in win rates for those hands will be based on how often they catch and get paid off in those pots where they steal with them. Since their steals are mostly heads up by the flop, I suspect that 23o catches the least often of their losing hands, and after enough hands is their biggest loser.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

Not to get too far OT, but 23o would catch more than 27o because it can flop made straights, as well as gutshots, which the good player can semi-bluff with or draw to when appropriate. Also there is less negative implied odds when you pair the trey than when you pair the seven, because it is more likely for your opponent to have a seven in his hand than a trey. But I digress.

Just a thought though: Is there a way, with pokertracker or any other software, to combine other players' hands and win/loss results (the ones that went to showdown or that they voluntarily exposed) and add those results to the user's results? That would increase the sample size and also give more representation to losing players and which hands they lose with the most

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

98s for me, but because it's too small a sample size (I simply have gotten straight < FHed twice with it).

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

SCs ldo

The majority of poker players, myself included, over-rates / misplays them. Of course, they do have the added value of providing a more deceptive, tougher, and balanced meta-game. However, this is not in any way necessary to beat mid-stakes. Furthermore, I remain to be convinced that these benefits increase winrate significantly enough to make them worth playing, especially given the increase in variance that comes with playing them.

I'm not saying "don't ever play suited connectors". It's just that many decent tags routinely play them in situations that simply aren't profitable, and this adds up to them being a net loser with hands such as 87s, 75s etc.

I know, because I'm one of them [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

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SCs ldo

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No, ldo. 87s is my 6th biggest winner.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

your better than me though

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

T8s, gotten flush over flushed, straight < full, full < full (88Txx board vs TT) and flush < full with it a few times over a 150k sample.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

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SCs ldo

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No, ldo. 87s is my 6th biggest winner.

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And it couldn't possibly be an outlier, obv.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

500k database

86s -0.18ptbb/hand
Q9s -0.18
97s -0.17
93s -0.16
42s -0.15

all the worst hands are suited, looks like i overplay my flushdraws in unraised pots

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SCs ldo

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No, ldo. 87s is my 6th biggest winner.

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And it couldn't possibly be an outlier, obv.

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No it couldn't. Ur right. And also, if I might add, you seem very smart.

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

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looks like i overplay my flushdraws in unraised pots

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Ya, cause all the hands u mentioned are too weak to raise, so you just limp them, amirite?

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

fwiw 98s is my biggest loser. To put things in perspective, I have only stacked someone with it once in 250,000 hands. I have never stacked someone with my second biggest loser, 97s, despite the fact that since SuperSystem I have been convinced that this hand is the nuts....

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

[ QUOTE ]
fwiw 98s is my biggest loser. To put things in perspective, I have only stacked someone with it once in 250,000 hands. I have never stacked someone with my second biggest loser, 97s, despite the fact that since SuperSystem I have been convinced that this hand is the nuts....

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Maybe you just suck at playing hands with nines in them?

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

pokerroom.com used to have a spreadsheet with ev results across 100 million+ hands on their site, broken down by position. In the cutoff for example, the 10 most negative ev hands are:
84 s (worst)
97 s
A6
Q3 s
A3
94 s
85 s
J2 s
A4
73 s (10th worst)

Re: What is the most -EV hand in no limit hold\'em?
 

Incidentally in the above example (from the cutoff) 84s is -0.15ev. According to the spreadsheet the most negative ev hands come from the BB and are:

J2 -0.43
J3 -0.43
94 -0.43
T2 -0.42
73 -0.42
Q2 -0.41
32 -0.41
83 -0.41
T3 -0.41
72 -0.41