Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

So i saw this post discussing Fold Equity and it really seemed to apply to no limit holdem where you can put your opponent in tough descision making situations, but does it really apply to PLO? If so how does it apply? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Here is where I read about it:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=2#Post6625934

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Fold equity means you can push some more marginal situations with certain hands because you can win the pot without getting to showdown

of course it applies in any form of poker

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

He explains F/e well, but he has manufacured a situation that will hardly every happen purely to justify his calculations

i havent played NLHE for a while, but i dont think its standard to open for 7.5 BB's is it?? and 4 other callers, making the pot 6 way with $75 dead money?? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

so he shoves and everyone folds - so absolutely everyone has missed this draw heavy flop?? dosent this many callers usually indicate middle pairs and suited connectors?? hmm.... if i could find a game this juicy i wouldnt be messing around with PLO [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

anyway enough HLHE talk - i think the basic reason you want to start shoving with draws in PLO, is to show you dont always have top set when you shove. Consiquently when you do have top set you are much more likely to get looked up by middle set, TTP, etc - hands you are owning and have virtually no chance against you

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but i dont think its standard to open for 7.5 BB's is it?? and 4 other callers, making the pot 6 way with $75 dead money?? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]


[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
You're playing Foxwoods, 1/2NL,

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unusual at live poker at all. Esp. 1/2

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Fold equity is great if you have a straight and flush draw with 15+ outs (Lets say it is a 50/50 situation). If the opponent has bottom or middle set and you have a chance he will fold in x% of the time, your EV is:

x*POT + (1-x)* 0.5 * POT = 0.5*POT + 0.5*x*POT

If the Pot is 100$ and he folds 20% of the time your EV is 60$ and the additional 10$ (if he never folds your EV is 50$) is your fold equity.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

So how do you determine how frequently the player will fold.. is this a guess?

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So how do you determine how frequently the player will fold.. is this a guess?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Ok well maybe that was too simple of an answer.

If opponent is capable of folding a two pair hand, then you can guess that the percentage will be higher.

If opponent is a calling station, it is impossible to have any fold equity.

So based off your opponent, you make a guess as to if they are capable of folding. If they are, it makes shoving a draw (sometimes) better than calling with it.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So how do you determine how frequently the player will fold.. is this a guess?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 funny! Tys.. I think I get it.. it is a guess just like your reads at the table, so you shouldn't attempt to use fold equity unless you understand your opponent.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
2 funny! Tys.. I think I get it.. it is a guess just like your reads at the table, so you shouldn't attempt to use fold equity unless you understand your opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

and you have an understanding of how your opponents view you - if you feel they might think you are a nut peddler they you have alot more f/e than a maniac pushing all kinds of rubbish

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Example of fold equity?? My thought it when he just called me on the flop rather than re-raising is that he is on a flush draw / has two pair so he is weak... so when the turn isn't a heart I pushed my mid-trips hoping for a fold.. example of fold equity??

Full Tilt Poker - Pot Limit Omaha Cash Game - $0.25/$0.50 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

Janellebb7 (SB): $17.80
BB: $15.25
UTG: $89.95
UTG+1: $20.35
MP1: $75.25
MP2: $40.70
MP3: $33.45
CO: $97.30
BTN: $45.75

Preflop: Janellebb7 is dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG calls $0.50, 3 folds, <font color="red">MP3 raises to $1.00</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $1.00, Janellebb7 calls $0.75, BB calls $0.50, UTG calls $0.50

Flop: ($5) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
<font color="red">Janellebb7 bets $2.50</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $2.50, 2 folds

Turn: ($10) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Janellebb7 bets $10.00</font>, UTG folds
Uncalled bet of $10.00 returned to Janellebb7

Pot Size: $10.00 ($0.50 Rake)

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

If he has two pair, you want him to call this bet. And he's not going to fold the nut straight.

So this example is not fold equity, but value betting on a very scary board.

Consider the following example:

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($322.85)
UTG ($140.45)
MP ($54.50)
Hero ($183.80)
SB ($62.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($8.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $18.50

Here I may have the best hand, but if he has KKxx or AAxx, I have a draw + some fold equity so raising was IMO better than calling. He may fold a better hand to my raise.

Edit: Even here isn't a great example, because I may be ahead. But I couldn't find a hand in my hand history that has me raising a complete draw to fold a better hand.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you lose.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone here is now dumber for having listened to you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

don't worry, i don't think anyone here listens to me. thank god.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
don't worry, i don't think anyone here listens to me. thank god.

[/ QUOTE ]


I listen to you, Pete. (I just don't always agree).

Buzz [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

If he has two pair, you want him to call this bet. And he's not going to fold the nut straight.

So this example is not fold equity, but value betting on a very scary board.

Consider the following example:

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha High, $1.00 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($322.85)
UTG ($140.45)
MP ($54.50)
Hero ($183.80)
SB ($62.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $3.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>.

Flop: ($8.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $15</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: $18.50

Here I may have the best hand, but if he has KKxx or AAxx, I have a draw + some fold equity so raising was IMO better than calling. He may fold a better hand to my raise.

Edit: Even here isn't a great example, because I may be ahead. But I couldn't find a hand in my hand history that has me raising a complete draw to fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

no. fold equity is really more or less what the name suggests - it's the amount of time the villain folds, times his average EV over the range that he folds, times the size of the pot. In standard 2p2 parlance fold equity just refers to the amount of times that the villain folds, but there is the magical word 'equity' in there.

for example, an MTT example is when you have 25BB, and the button raises to 4xBB and you shove from the BB with AA, you have a lot of fold equity on your shove. this doesn't mean that shoving is right here, just that it's part of what you should be considering in your EV calculations.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

I'm confused by the responses in this thread that treat "fold equity" as some tool to be used during the play of a hand. I don't know, maybe it's getting confused with semi-bluffing.

We all talk about equity with our holdings versus an opponent's range on a given board. In general when we talk about that equity we're talking about a hot-and-cold situation, where there is no more betting. But when the betting is open, you can't strictly talk about absolute hand equities.

Simply, if you bet, you now have another way to win the hand: your opponent folds. That's your fold equity. Figuring out that number is complicated, and, as indicated above, it's usually an educated guess.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

fold equity for me is just a percent of time when opponent folds. i also like the attached article, it explains about EV at all but not about FE imho.
usually we think about FE when we arent sure in our hand. so, say we have 40% to win, but with our bet he would fold, say 40% of time. so in 60% of time we win in 40% of time. and in 40% of time we win 100% of time. calculating this, we have 0.24+0.4 (64%) probabilty of winning.

applicating to omaha, we cant get our FE as much as Holdem if we play POT limit game. also we have 4 cards in omaha which generally makes fold a bit toughter.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are wrong. The pot is 50$ and you push the rest of your 50$. Your equity is 60%. What do you want, that he folds in 50% of the cases or that he calls everytimes?

If he folds in 50% you will win 0.5*50$ + 0.5*(100$*0.6 - 50$*0.4) = 45$

If he calls 100% you will win 0.6*100$ - 0.4*50$ = 40$

I take the 45$ and I am happy if he folds as a 40/60 dog here.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is 50$ and you push the rest of your 50$. Your equity is 60%. What do you want, that he folds in 50% of the cases or that he calls everytimes?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Don - Neither.

You should want your opponent to always fold if your pot equity is only 60%. And the closer to always, the better.

Two thirds is the cut off.

If your pot equity is 67% or better, you should want your opponent to always call.

If your pot equity is 66% or worse, you should want your opponent to always fold.

But how often do you know what your pot equity (expressed as a percentage) is? Against decent opponents, you can rarely or never be certain of your pot equity, let alone your "fold equity."

Buzz

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused by the responses in this thread that treat "fold equity" as some tool to be used during the play of a hand. I don't know, maybe it's getting confused with semi-bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I am getting confused.. I guess I need to read this and disgest it some more because ya'll are confusing me.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok this is the part that really confuses me. I thought fold equity is when you think you are in a 50/50 situation and possibly you may even be weaker - especially if you allow them to draw to the next card.

I guess I still don't completely get the difference between a semi-bluff and fold equity.

PS: Sorry I keep changing my avatar. I am done now! lol I swear to god! The other one was just really bad!

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]

PS: Sorry I keep changing my avatar. I am done now! lol I swear to god! The other one was just really good!

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

ok i think ive found a reasonable example of fold equity! the odds in this hand are about 55%/45% in favour of villan, so im certainly not raising like this because i want a call, its because i want him to fold his trip 3's as im representing a higher set - how come donkeys always get rewarded huh?? and to make it worse he made some smart ass remark after he won [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Cryptologic
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $0.50/$1
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $41.35
UTG+1: $101
Hero: $100
Button: $143.82
SB: $28.80
BB: $24.65

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $4.5</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($19.5, 4 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 bets $19.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $78</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises all-in $96.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero calls all-in $17.5</font>.
Uncalled bets: $1 returned to UTG+1.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($210.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $210.5)


River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($210.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $210.5)


Results:

UTG+1: shows [3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] (A Full House, Eights full of Threes)
Hero: shows [Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]] (A Straight, Queen high)
Mar271022 collected $207.50 from Main pot

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Hi Janelle,

When we talk about equity in the general sense basically what it means is your share or % of you owning the pot. We are not talking about odds to make your hand, its just your ownership of the pot. We can use equity in the sense such as tournament equity for example when you play a SNG. If there are 10 players you would think everyones tournament equity is 10 %. However, this is not always the case since some players are worse or better than others so there equity is different.

Fold Equity is the same sort of concept. For example AK has fold equity in that if someone raises the pot and you push all in, they are most likely going to fold unless they have a monster. AK has Fold Equity, a greater % of ownership to the pot.

I hope this makes sense.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Hi Janelle - It's interesting how the same words, here "fold equity" can mean different things to different individuals.

Dshadow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold Equity is the same sort of concept. For example AK has fold equity in that if someone raises the pot and you push all in, they are most likely going to fold unless they have a monster. AK has Fold Equity, a greater % of ownership to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]makes very good sense to me.

SavageMiser's[ QUOTE ]
Simply, if you bet, you now have another way to win the hand: your opponent folds. That's your fold equity. Figuring out that number is complicated, and, as indicated above, it's usually an educated guess.

[/ QUOTE ]makes very good sense to me.

Blah_blah's[ QUOTE ]
for example, an MTT example is when you have 25BB, and the button raises to 4xBB and you shove from the BB with AA, you have a lot of fold equity on your shove. this doesn't mean that shoving is right here, just that it's part of what you should be considering in your EV calculations.

[/ QUOTE ]makes very good sense.

Elrazor's[ QUOTE ]
i think the basic reason you want to start shoving with draws in PLO, is to show you don't always have top set when you shove. Consequently when you do have top set you are much more likely to get looked up by middle set, TTP, etc - hands you are owning and have virtually no chance against you

[/ QUOTE ]and[ QUOTE ]
you have an understanding of how your opponents view you - if you feel they might think you are a nut peddler they you have alot more f/e than a maniac pushing all kinds of rubbish

[/ QUOTE ]don't answer the question but add very good insight to one way to use "fold equity."

JPG has an excellent handle on it with:[ QUOTE ]
If opponent is a calling station, it is impossible to have any fold equity.

So based off your opponent, you make a guess as to if they are capable of folding. If they are, it makes shoving a draw (sometimes) better than calling with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

ParlaySlow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold equity means you can push some more marginal situations with certain hands because you can win the pot without getting to showdown

[/ QUOTE ]shows good understanding.

That's just my unofficial opinion. I don't know who started using "fold equity" as a term. Whoever did, it's a fairly recent concept and there is evidently not universal agreement as to the exact meaning of the term, at least so far as I know. (And that seems evident in this thread).

I couldn't resist poking fun at Pete in my first response and I didn't answer your question in my second. But I think somewhere in all the kind replies quoted above is the essence of what you need to know.

I don't mean to disparage other replies within the thread by not quoting them. I didn't start the thread, you did Janelle, but I also appreciate all the replies you got.

Buzz

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. Fold equity is only when you are certain he holds a weak, but better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok maybe I should explain that better. I mean I never care about my fold equity unless I probably have a worse hand, but his probably isn't that good.

If I think I have the best hand, I don't care about my fold equity - I want him to call.

Yes, you have equity for the percentage you draw to make a legitimate winning hand, and your fold equity is the portion of the pot you gain by making him fold a better one.

I just don't care about it while I'm ahead.

Also, you usually have no fold equity against the nuts, so I'm only considering it when I think he has a weak hand that might be better than mine. (El Razor gave a good example - where you're clear that 99 is probably not good, and by putting enough pressure on your opponent, he might fold a better hand) If I think he has a weak hand worse than mine, I want him to call and I don't care about my fold equity.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

There is no such thing as fold equity in pot limit omaha. People just never fold. If you start fooling yourself into thinking you can raise someone off a better hand than yours, then you're just wrong. If people fold to your raise, then it's because they had absolutely nothing and you weren't bluffing, you were value betting.

My point is really this, do NOT ever factor in "fold equity" when deciding whether or not to bet your hand. It is almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Janelle - It's interesting how the same words, here "fold equity" can mean different things to different individuals.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely, I see that everyone here has a slightly different definition. I can see it is more of a theoretical poker term.

Dshadow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold Equity is the same sort of concept. For example AK has fold equity in that if someone raises the pot and you push all in, they are most likely going to fold unless they have a monster. AK has Fold Equity, a greater % of ownership to the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So here you are saying in Omaha Holdem terms like having AAxx as a starting hand would be like having AK.. it has a greater potential to win over the average hand at the table and therefore you can use your betting to prehaps scare off an individual holding weaker starting hands.

SavageMiser's[ QUOTE ]
Simply, if you bet, you now have another way to win the hand: your opponent folds. That's your fold equity. Figuring out that number is complicated, and, as indicated above, it's usually an educated guess.

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds very much like semi-bluffing to me.. so I am not sure I see the difference there but it makes sense that it will work. I just don't understand how it is different from bluffing.


Blah_blah's[ QUOTE ]
for example, an MTT example is when you have 25BB, and the button raises to 4xBB and you shove from the BB with AA, you have a lot of fold equity on your shove. this doesn't mean that shoving is right here, just that it's part of what you should be considering in your EV calculations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand how this is fold equity actually. Wouldn't you want the call? I thought fold equity you want them to fold?

Elrazor's[ QUOTE ]
i think the basic reason you want to start shoving with draws in PLO, is to show you don't always have top set when you shove. Consequently when you do have top set you are much more likely to get looked up by middle set, TTP, etc - hands you are owning and have virtually no chance against you

[/ QUOTE ]and[ QUOTE ]
you have an understanding of how your opponents view you - if you feel they might think you are a nut peddler they you have alot more f/e than a maniac pushing all kinds of rubbish

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what makes the most sense to me, but I can see how the line between a semi bluff and fold equity merge. To me this means you have a hand with potential but you are still a slight underdog and in order to get an opponent who is stronger yet not holding the nuts to fold you represent a strong hand.. and this is fold equity? That is what makes sense to me but then what do i know lol.

JPG has an excellent handle on it with:[ QUOTE ]
If opponent is a calling station, it is impossible to have any fold equity.

So based off your opponent, you make a guess as to if they are capable of folding. If they are, it makes shoving a draw (sometimes) better than calling with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah absolutely makes sense to me because I know some people will call till the bitter end, so you have to know the opponent and know how they will respond to your bets.

ParlaySlow's[ QUOTE ]
Fold equity means you can push some more marginal situations with certain hands because you can win the pot without getting to showdown

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that and thats kind of what I was thinking... but I thought the hand I showed represented that??? Didn't it?

[ QUOTE ]
That's just my unofficial opinion. I don't know who started using "fold equity" as a term. Whoever did, it's a fairly recent concept and there is evidently not universal agreement as to the exact meaning of the term, at least so far as I know. (And that seems evident in this thread).

I couldn't resist poking fun at Pete in my first response and I didn't answer your question in my second. But I think somewhere in all the kind replies quoted above is the essence of what you need to know.

I don't mean to disparage other replies within the thread by not quoting them. I didn't start the thread, you did Janelle, but I also appreciate all the replies you got.

Buzz

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah a lot of really great replies everybody... I have to admit I am still really confused LOL but I think I got the essence of it and I guess the ways it can help you in the game, and I will try to slowly bring it into my game.

Thanks for the summary Buzz it really helped me sort through all of the responses which were so varied! I feel like this topic is like trying to figure out the Big Bang Theory LOL. But good stuff nonetheless! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

I HEAR you Ribbo.. you must play on Pokerstars lol.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Janelle,

I must admit that Fold Equity before the flop in PLO really does not exist so much because no hand is such a big underdog that you can make someone fold. However Post Flop it can exist.

In spots were you would see more folding such as tournament poker it would apply more.

Janelle, I told you I would reply to your posts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Here is a formal definition of Fold Equity I found at Wikipedia.

Fold Equity is a concept in poker strategy that is especially important when a player becomes short-stacked in a no limit (or possibly pot limit) tournament. It is the equity a player can consider him or herself likely to gain if he or she bets. It equates to:

(gain in equity if opponent(s) fold) X (likelihood that opponents fold)

The first half of the formula is known because it is whatever share of equity the folding opponent has. The second cannot be known but must be estimated based on reads or previous actions.

It becomes an important concept for short stacks for the following reason. Opponents can be considered likely to call all-ins with a certain range of hands. When they will have to use a large percentage of their stack to make the call, this range can be expected to be quite narrow (it will include all the hands the caller expects to win an all-in against the bettor). As the percentage of stack needed to call becomes lower, the range of cards the caller will need becomes wider, and he or she becomes less likely to fold. Consequently, fold equity diminishes. There will be a point at which a caller will need a sufficiently small percentage of their stack to call the all-in that they will do so with any two cards. At that point, the all-in bettor will have no fold equity.

Example

Alice holds A6. She is heads up with Brian, who holds 22. The flop is 973 rainbow (no cards of the same suit).

Alice has pot equity of 31.5%
Brian has pot equity of 68.5%

(In other words, if there was no further betting, and the players simply turned up their hands and were dealt the turn and river, Alice is 31.5% likely to win.)

If Brian is 70% likely to fold, Alice's fold equity is 47.95% (68.5 x .7). Consequently, Alice can consider that her hand equity if she bets will equal 31.5 + 47.95%, almost 80%.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

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There is no such thing as fold equity in pot limit omaha. People just never fold. If you start fooling yourself into thinking you can raise someone off a better hand than yours, then you're just wrong. If people fold to your raise, then it's because they had absolutely nothing and you weren't bluffing, you were value betting.

My point is really this, do NOT ever factor in "fold equity" when deciding whether or not to bet your hand. It is almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

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huh? most "fold equity" comes from people folding weaker made hands that would still have equity against an aggressively-played draw, and people folding weaker draws that would still have equity against an aggressively-played made hand. those both happen all the time, and you should obviously take that into account when deciding whether to play your draws or your weaker made hands aggressively.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no such thing as fold equity in pot limit omaha. People just never fold. If you start fooling yourself into thinking you can raise someone off a better hand than yours, then you're just wrong. If people fold to your raise, then it's because they had absolutely nothing and you weren't bluffing, you were value betting.

My point is really this, do NOT ever factor in "fold equity" when deciding whether or not to bet your hand. It is almost irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? most "fold equity" comes from people folding weaker made hands that would still have equity against an aggressively-played draw, and people folding weaker draws that would still have equity against an aggressively-played made hand. those both happen all the time, and you should obviously take that into account when deciding whether to play your draws or your weaker made hands aggressively.

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Pete I actually don't Think Ribbo was being completely serious in his comment here... sounded like fustration to me.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

I think he was completely serious.

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

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Blah_blah's[ QUOTE ]
for example, an MTT example is when you have 25BB, and the button raises to 4xBB and you shove from the BB with AA, you have a lot of fold equity on your shove. this doesn't mean that shoving is right here, just that it's part of what you should be considering in your EV calculations.

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I don't understand how this is fold equity actually. Wouldn't you want the call? I thought fold equity you want them to fold?

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Calling or raising to 10BB or so are probably better options here in a vacuum, yes. In fact minraising may be a better option in a vacuum. The idea is that if you have AA, you have 80% equity on each additional dollar your opponent puts in the pot preflop, whereas if you assume your opponent folds 80% of the time to your shove, your fold equity is about 0.80 * 0.20 * 8BB (plus the usual ev calculations for the 20% of the time he calls the shove).

Re: Fold Equity - what is it? and does it really apply in PLO?
 

Ok I think I see your point now.. you are saying that you want to raise preflop because you want to a. eliminate as many other callers as possible ( which at the limits I play doesn't happen!!! lol) b. because 80% of the time his hand isn't going to be good enough to call you with if you pot the flop. And really you don't want to see the other streets because your hand isn't likely to improve to a str8, fh, or flush. Correct? Yes I see then how fold equity works in the case of aces and I think I have naturally done it but now I know why lol. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]