200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Villain is quite solid: Something like 19/15/3 and we have not tangled yet.

I don't play too goot in these spots, but I really felt like I played this one pretty well. But I'm all for discussion on all streets. I think the river is really the only ??? one, but possibly the flop. Thoughts?

Please note stack sizes before commenting.


Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 5 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $410.00
Hero (BB): $684.55
UTG: $99.30
CO: $189.30
BTN: $260.45

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $8.00</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $26.00</font>, SB calls $18.00

Flop: ($52) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($52) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $40.00</font>, Hero calls $40.00

River: ($132) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $94.00</font>, Hero calls $94.00

Pot Size: $320.00 ($3 Rake)

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

i make it bigger pre, like 30

dont mind how you played it, but i might minraise the turn

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Lol what's ur FTP sign in name?

Why check flop? I'd just get it in here but people think I'm crazy I guess.

As played it's fine.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

nh

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

definitely raise a bit more preflop as he'll be calling you lighter with the stacks you have.

i really don't get the flop check... i mean this isn't UTG vs UTG+1, its BVB, he could have 9T here. Obvioulsy you aren't stacking off here but you have to bet as he isn't going to immediately put you on KK unless you are an ubernit. Get some value.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

I want to raise the river given the line you took. But whatever, the hand looks fine. I'd bet the flop generally though and I wouldn't be looking to fold if raised.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

WTF @ raise more preflop, whyyyyyyyyy ???????? That makes no sense, hell, I'd raise less to 24 usually even. Flop check, meh, whatever. Rest is std if you do that. I bet flop, call c/r call turn shove

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Maybe I'm looking at this too simplistically then?

He makes a standard raise to take the blinds. I reraise, which, to be honest, I'm not doing much vs a TAG...maybe I need to look into this.

Nonetheless, we're both deep and he called a 3bet, so I give him credit for a hand. Something mid-pair, and AJ+?

The reason for no flop bet is that I'm not too worried about free cards here as it's WA/WB here, imo. Plus, the ONLY hands I'm getting value from are TT-QQ which are possible, but I fold out the VAST majority of hands by betting and if he HAPPENS to have a set here, I keep the pot reasonable, being 200+BB's deep.

So the same thing could be said on the turn as for the lack of a raise here. Plus, it SCREAMS strength when checking the flop behind and raising the turn. Therefore, if he has Ax or TT-QQ, I allow him to keep betting the river.

By playing this as passive as I did, I think I'm forced to call the river, but I think we're beat here a VAST majority of the time, but I set this up, so you have to pay it off. I think raising the river is pure spew here.

WTF calls us when we raise this river that we beat? Mayyyyyyyyyybe QQ, and that's it.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
WTF @ raise more preflop, whyyyyyyyyy ???????? That makes no sense, hell, I'd raise less to 24 usually even. Flop check, meh, whatever. Rest is std if you do that. I bet flop, call c/r call turn shove

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that fairly exploitable though? I mean, you had a THINKING player 200BB's if he happens to crack your big pair?

I think that's pretty bad here. You have to take into consideration both of our images here.

If this were Nielsio or goofyballer in the BB, you'd tell him to stack off here too? I think that's pretty horrible.

With YOUR image, sure, no doubt. But I'm not a LAG, carrot....

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

you and goofy are gonna get along just fine &lt;3

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

felix PM ur sign in name!

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
felix PM ur sign in name!

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

And um, carrot, not all of us need to be LAG's to win at $120/hr [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

just put in a long session wondering what it was

i'm with carrot here fwiw but it's probably cuz we play way laggier

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

if people flop sets on me, they are allowed to stack me in 3 bet pots, its like a rule. The fact is, even if you are a nit, people do take shots, this is a battle in the blinds and you have KANGZ [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Your thought process is not bad, don't get me wrong, but your thought process is also flawed in that your playing this with almost scared money simply because you are 200 BBs deep. The only hands your getting value from are NOT TT-QQ on the flop. Try more like Any pair, any draw, some random hands that decide to float oop. Your losing to basically 5 hands(AA/98/66/99/88). Your saying this is a well ahead/WB situation. Its not, at all. The board is 986 man, he has plenty of draws that have decent equity, TJ is a very real draw he could have, etc.

One thing though, if your NOT willing to play for stacks, then the flop check makes far more sense. As for raising the river, 2 blanks fall off, your hand looks very marginal, a river raise here is obv a lil thin, but its perfect. He's not just calling with QQ, if that was so, you should be shoving every hand in your range at that point(even including hands that have QQ beat). He very well could have 97 and be like, wtf, your TJ missed and call. Do not underestimate how badly people want to outplay, outcall, and outclass each other at the poker table

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

To each their own, Fonkey. I mean, I admit that playing vs carrot is teh suck for me. He's damn good and I don't look to play vs him.

That said, I'll give you a hint: It starts with "Sir" and ends in "Cat". [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Felix, this has nothing to do with LAG vs TAG vs anything else. This has to do with posting a hand with a thought process that probably has to be slightly different as you move up, change your game, whatever. I might make fun of goofy, but even with as nitty as he is, his lines generally are fundamentally sound and he gets the value he needs/wants even as a nit

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Fair enough and maybe I was playing this a little scared being 200NL vs a solid player. I'm not immune I guess.


That said, I have to be honest here in that I don't EVER see ANY 3 bet pots in BvB in which the 3bettor is doing so light.

Keep in mind, I table select pretty goot, so therefore, I'm not going to see those situations that much.

And I am by no means saying that I'm God's gift at 200NL. Hardly, hell, in fact, I know I have a ton to learn, I'm just saying that I dont' think that everyone's UBERAGGRO approach is always correct here.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]

By playing this as passive as I did, I think I'm forced to call the river, but I think we're beat here a VAST majority of the time, but I set this up, so you have to pay it off. I think raising the river is pure spew here.

WTF calls us when we raise this river that we beat? Mayyyyyyyyyybe QQ, and that's it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wtf you're even thinking about folding the river?

I'd shove the river against anybody remotely decent if I took your line and expect to be called by random pairs. Against an unimaginative nit, sure whatever just call the river since he doesn't have the balls to make a hero call.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Maybe I wasn't clear...


I have yet to be in a spot this deep, with a solid reg (gomsipjorn btw), in a BvB hand. My bad for not playing it for the utmost value here fellas....

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Oh wait the decision is between call/fold?!

I thought you were debating between call/push.

I push here a fair bit, but calling is fine.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

I mean if u check the flop you have to call the river. I kinda like ur line as you extract good value from TT-QQ and he could even be bluffing with overs. Against typical opponents I would bet the flop tho.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

No, never said I'd fold, just thinking out loud my thought process is all.


And again, raising the river is HORRIBLE. I'm a TAG/NIT. I'm not 3betting light in BvB often. Therefore I'm saying I have a hand. He also is a TAG and he calls. WTF does he put me on here that he can call the river push?

Maybe I can raise the turn, but if I get b/3b, can I really like it?!?

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

You need to IM goofy imo. He'll set you straight.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I mean if u check the flop you have to call the river. I kinda like ur line as you extract good value from TT-QQ and he could even be bluffing with overs. Against typical opponents I would bet the flop tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I agree 100%. The point is that I'm not afraid of too many free cards here, so I thought that this extracts the most from missed overs etc. Am I really gonna get 3 streets of value from a TAG here, given my image as well? Small chance imo.

Now, if this guys you're typical monkey, bet your ass I'm looking at getting it in here, sure. But he's not. THAT'S the issue I'm sticking to here......

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
No, never said I'd fold, just thinking out loud my thought process is all.


And again, raising the river is HORRIBLE. I'm a TAG/NIT. I'm not 3betting light in BvB often. Therefore I'm saying I have a hand. He also is a TAG and he calls. WTF does he put me on here that he can call the river push?

Maybe I can raise the turn, but if I get b/3b, can I really like it?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain can read hands and is capable of making big calls if he thinks he is good then he will think your line represents no hand and therefore call with far less than KK.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, never said I'd fold, just thinking out loud my thought process is all.


And again, raising the river is HORRIBLE. I'm a TAG/NIT. I'm not 3betting light in BvB often. Therefore I'm saying I have a hand. He also is a TAG and he calls. WTF does he put me on here that he can call the river push?

Maybe I can raise the turn, but if I get b/3b, can I really like it?!?

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain can read hands and is capable of making big calls if he thinks he is good then he will think your line represents no hand and therefore call with far less than KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. Now granted, my default is to bet the flop, obviously. I thought, though, that this maximizes value from weaker hands. C'est la vie.




Villain had 99 and MHING, but I think that's moot, really. Just trying to think outside the box and taking image, stack size, value, and deception all into play. I guess I I'm just a weak/tight nit. :shrug:

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

OP if you want ppl to consider your nitty image then note your stats with the hh.

As played riv is an easy call and I'm super happy with it. Your hands looking v meadium strength, alot like TT, TJ.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP if you want ppl to consider your nitty image then note your stats with the hh.

As played riv is an easy call and I'm super happy with it. Your hands looking v meadium strength, alot like TT, TJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just figured it was well known by now, but fair enough. I seriously doubt that matters to most here anyway though... :shrug:

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
if people flop sets on me, they are allowed to stack me in 3 bet pots, its like a rule. The fact is, even if you are a nit, people do take shots, this is a battle in the blinds and you have KANGZ [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Your thought process is not bad, don't get me wrong, but your thought process is also flawed in that your playing this with almost scared money simply because you are 200 BBs deep. The only hands your getting value from are NOT TT-QQ on the flop. Try more like Any pair, any draw, some random hands that decide to float oop. Your losing to basically 5 hands(AA/98/66/99/88). Your saying this is a well ahead/WB situation. Its not, at all. The board is 986 man, he has plenty of draws that have decent equity, TJ is a very real draw he could have, etc.

One thing though, if your NOT willing to play for stacks, then the flop check makes far more sense. As for raising the river, 2 blanks fall off, your hand looks very marginal, a river raise here is obv a lil thin, but its perfect. He's not just calling with QQ, if that was so, you should be shoving every hand in your range at that point(even including hands that have QQ beat). He very well could have 97 and be like, wtf, your TJ missed and call. Do not underestimate how badly people want to outplay, outcall, and outclass each other at the poker table

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said.

[rant]Especially the part about "scared money". I see this fairly often on this forum for some reason. "ZOMG YOU HAS 150BB, FIND A BETTER SPOT!!1!!1!!!" Well that's silly in cash games, the only spot that matters is the one you are in, and if you just give away money in a clear +EV situation (even if it's fairly thin), that's gonna really hurt your win rate. I mean, 50.1% after correcting for pot odds, fine, control variance, but with a small but clear edge be ready to get the cabbage in the middle. Go short-stack or something if you are not willing to jam the money in even when you get above 150BB. [/rant]

Here I don't even think it's thin. I bet this flop 100% of the time, and I'm willing to get the $$ in at any point, and I'm a TAG.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
if people flop sets on me, they are allowed to stack me in 3 bet pots, its like a rule. The fact is, even if you are a nit, people do take shots, this is a battle in the blinds and you have KANGZ

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you like look at Hero and Villain stack sizes? Although this is a 3bet pot villain is getting implied odds to call with any reasonable pocket pair here.

Two important factors are at play:
1. What is villains Att to Steal % and
2. Has he done this from the SB before (is he aware of how important position is)? What history is there between the two of you?
We know villain is a TAG and a thinking player. With these size of stacks he IS NOT going to stack off with a marginal hand because its a "Blind Battle" lol.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if people flop sets on me, they are allowed to stack me in 3 bet pots, its like a rule. The fact is, even if you are a nit, people do take shots, this is a battle in the blinds and you have KANGZ

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you like look at Hero and Villain stack sizes? Although this is a 3bet pot villain is getting implied odds to call with any reasonable pocket pair here.

Two important factors are at play:
1. What is villains Att to Steal % and
2. Has he done this from the SB before (is he aware of how important position is)? What history is there between the two of you?
We know villain is a TAG and a thinking player. With these size of stacks he IS NOT going to stack off with a marginal hand because its a "Blind Battle" lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, yeah, these are good points actually. I guess I'm not so ready to jam after all. But I still bet the flop 100% and go from there.

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

However as played on the flop you have to call down. I would either flat call (very unlikely) preflop or raise more preflop. You either control pot size or try to get comitted asap on the flop making things easiser for yourself. This standard 3bet actually just makes things trickier given the stack sizes.

Did we find out what villains hand was?

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

3bet in big blinds more like this with many hands it is so profitable

Re: 200NL: KK in Blind v. Blind vs Solid...
 

Pre-replies:

Why check the flop??? You have the second best possible overpair, time to start the train to valuetown yo. I think this is a really easy bet; it's not like he isn't calling with worse given that he generally expects you to bet any hand here that you would RR pre with. I think he calls you with a huge range of hands.

As played, though, I guess call/call is standard. You can raise the turn if you're willing to get it in (I say this because check flop/raise blank turn looks SUPER weird and thus is a lot more likely to induce weird plays from him; so, you can only really raise any of the following streets if you're ready to get it in), which is somewhat read-dependent, but if not you def aren't folding at any point.

Post-replies:

[ QUOTE ]
That said, I have to be honest here in that I don't EVER see ANY 3 bet pots in BvB in which the 3bettor is doing so light.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? My impression is that ranges go out the window to a certain degree in BvB situations because everybody's so intent on winning the $3 blinds that they're willing to put $50 in the pot before the flop is even dealt just do so. I think people in general (and correctly so) 3bet much, much wider ranges in position in a BvB spot than they would, say, in the small blind vs a button opener - which is still a fairly wide range to begin with!

[ QUOTE ]
And again, raising the river is HORRIBLE. I'm a TAG/NIT. I'm not 3betting light in BvB often. Therefore I'm saying I have a hand. He also is a TAG and he calls. WTF does he put me on here that he can call the river push?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the line you took, assuming you shove riv. What exactly are you representing? You check the flop after 3betting pre (looks like a whiffed hand or weakish hand playing for pot control), flat call turn (not raising with lots behind = don't want to get involved in a huge pot), and shove riv on a complete blank that couldn't possibly have helped you (makes sense with...busted draw?).

If you put all this together, honestly, a hand like A7s or 76s makes the most sense. Regardless, your hand looks absolutely nothing like what it is, and a thinking player can easily look you up lighter if he's trying to read hands because, as explained, your line looks like you're full of [censored].

[ QUOTE ]
Do not underestimate how badly people want to outplay, outcall, and outclass each other at the poker table

[/ QUOTE ]

QFTQFTQFTQFT. I think this is the reason I make money at poker.