20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

this hand is posted for nina

full table. 2 fish limp, taggy sb raises, we call 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in bb.

flop q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

sb leads.

we were thinking this is a probably raise or fold right, probably (this is babar thinking) leaning a bit more toward raise? what do you guys think?

edited to put in that we agreed it was raise or fold, nina didn't say what she thought, and i (babar) think maybe raise.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
this hand is posted for nina

full table. 2 fish limp, taggy sb raises, we call 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in bb.

flop q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

sb leads.

we were thinking this is a probably raise or fold right, probably leaning a bit more toward raise? what do you guys think?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm leaning the way heck towards folding. Before calling that one extra small bet pre-flop, know what you're looking for in a flop. This isn't it.

Garland

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

Exactly - he either has AK or you're tortured and he's not folding. And someone behind you could have a queen as well. It's muckville time.

Jeff

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

The pair on the flop hurts you more than it helps. While he might not have a queen, you have a terrible hand because you can't even suck out with two pair.

Unless you have an extremely specific read on this player that he doesn't have a pair yet, fold.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this hand is posted for nina

full table. 2 fish limp, taggy sb raises, we call 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in bb.

flop q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

sb leads.

we were thinking this is a probably raise or fold right, probably leaning a bit more toward raise? what do you guys think?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm leaning the way heck towards folding. Before calling that one extra small bet pre-flop, know what you're looking for in a flop. This isn't it.

Garland

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Indeed...while it is difficult to fold a low, suited one-gapper preflop getting 7:1, the fact that your position sucks relative to the raiser means that on the flop you often will: be forced to make difficult decisions about hands which may be ahead but have terrible reverse implied odds or face a possible squeeze when you flop a draw.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

this depends on who the sb is and how wide his range is. you should raise the flop if I'm the sb but against most players in this game it's a fold.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

yeah, i'm usually in the fold camp.

by raising we do have the sweet advantage of folding out the fish and getting HU with the taggy SB who showed a decent amount of strength pf(although one could argue he was trying to get you out of the pot so he would have the fish to himself).

i'm calling pf. i might call the flop, but if my options are raise or fold, i fold.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

This is a tough spot, I used to raise in these spots, but I agree with the posters saying that you have terrible reverse implied odds in this spot. I think it's muck time since you can't even suck out with 2 pair.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

Whatever to this thread so far. First, it's not raise or fold. You certainly can call here. Raise vs. Call depends on the predictability of the SB. A good TAG has a range lots larger than AK AA-99 here. This "he's got AK or we're toast" stuff is way too pessimistic unless he's not a TAG at all, and rather is weak tight.

Let's put it like this, I'm no LAG, but my range here with two retards limping in, my SB and a decent BB I don't want in my pot: A9s, ATo, JTs, 88 and up.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

I like a raise.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like a raise.

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Just out of curiosity, do you like to play online or live more? I'm thinking this might be another hand where the environment makes the difference in the decision.

Garland

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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Let's put it like this, I'm no LAG, but my range here with two retards limping in, my SB and a decent BB I don't want in my pot: A9s, ATo, JTs, 88 and up.

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But how many of these hands are you leading the flop with, against 4 players?

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

Why?

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, do you like to play online or live more? I'm thinking this might be another hand where the environment makes the difference in the decision.

Garland

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Like all my experience is online. It does depend entirely on the guy in the SB. For me to consider him TAG, the table would have to consider him LAG.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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I like a raise.

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a raise says "I have an 8" or "I need to raise to see where I stand" or "I have to protect my hand" - take your pick, you might as well turn your hand over.

Not sure why everyone wants to fold, this is an easy call for me, much easier call than raise.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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Not sure why everyone wants to fold, this is an easy call for me, much easier call than raise.

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What exactly do you think taggy SB has? And if you call and everyone else folds, are you calling the turn and river as well? Are you folding to a single raise in the field?

One of the reasons you can call 68s in the big blind given 7:1 and poor relative position is that you can make proper decisions after the flop. You're not closing the action, and SB likely has you smashed.

Also, simply calling opens the door to gutshot draws.

If you can make a claim that SB is weak-tight and will fold the turn putting you on a Q, that is advanced, but the only way I'm possibly smoothcalling.

Garland

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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What exactly do you think taggy SB has? And if you call and everyone else folds, are you calling the turn and river as well? Are you folding to a single raise in the field?


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a ton of A high hands, 66, 55, etc are all within the villain's range as well as hands that crush the hero. I call and re-evaluate on the turn, chances are this hand will get HU and if it doesn't the hero is likely crushed. Hero has around 47% equity vs the villains range, I am not folding here so lightly if its heads-up, I'll wait to re-evaluate.

Of course I fold to a raise in the field.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
a ton of A high hands, 66, 55, etc are all within the villain's range as well as hands that crush the hero.

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Therein lies the disparity. I don’t feel a taggy SB is raising 55, 66 or a “bunch of A highs”. You’re going against AK or AJ if lucky.

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Hero has around 47% equity vs the villains range, I am not folding here so lightly if its heads-up, I'll wait to re-evaluate.

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Another problem is you're not heads up--there are two people after you, and you're ignoring the field's equity. The fact SB is continuation betting in a field of four heightens his range.

Garland

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

For all of you saying we should fold, is your answer different with A8 here?

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
a ton of A high hands, 66, 55, etc are all within the villain's range as well as hands that crush the hero.

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There in lies the disparity. I don’t feel a taggy SB is raising 55, 66 or a “bunch of A highs”. You’re going against AK or AJ if lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]AJ o if we are lucky, I agree. A9s if we are lucky as well. AJs, ATs, all raising. And I do think he is raising 66, 55 if we are lucky.

I determined the range vs the SB because its unlikely we will see a caller, and if we do we are done with the hand. If the hand is HU its likely we will win vs a TAG unless he holds AQ, KQ, AA or KK, your hand is going to look like a monster.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I like a raise.

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a raise says "I have an 8" or "I need to raise to see where I stand" or "I have to protect my hand" - take your pick, you might as well turn your hand over.

Not sure why everyone wants to fold, this is an easy call for me, much easier call than raise.

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Who cares what it says to the rest of the table, I'd like to watch them call 2 cold cold w/a hand like AJ, KJ, JT or some other bs them limped in with that they have 6 outs against us. Whether to raise or fold may not be a clear decision but calling is the worst of the 3 options. Our hand isn't that strong, we'd rather play this hand HU, and there are many hands that will be correct to call for 1 bet that we can fold out. We also might be able to fold out some weaklings w/hand like 99 and better 8s fearing our raise.

If you want to continue with this hand, raise to force out the field and get it HU w/a taggy sb who certianly might have AK. IMO his range is TT+ AK, AQ. The pot is 9sbs when it comes to us, lets play some poker.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
AJ o if we are lucky, I agree. A9s if we are lucky as well. AJs, ATs, all raising. And I do think he is raising 66, 55 if we are lucky.



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I'll buy ATs, but not 55 or 66. Instinctually (and correctly) he should be keeping the pot small with a small pocket pair due to the fact he's almost always going to be in a tough spot on the flop against 2 or 3 other opponents.

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I determined the range vs the SB because its unlikely we will see a caller, and if we do we are done with the hand. If the hand is HU its likely we will win vs a TAG unless he holds AQ, KQ, AA or KK, your hand is going to look like a monster.

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If SB isn't winning with JJ, TT, 99 as well he truly is weak tight.

Now, if your plan is to make a move and raise the turn against SB heads up, we have a whole different discussion going. I don't mind this.

Garland

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

my first thought for why i don't want to just call is that the two guys behind us could have a lot of combined outs against us that i don't really want them to take one off with. for example one guy with unpaired overs to our hand has 6 outs, some lower pp might take one off for 2 more outs, etc. a really bad scenario like one has kt and one has aj (and we're not behind already to the third guy, obviously), and upwards of 10 cards are bad for us. so i was thinking a raise knocks them out hopefully...?

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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who cares what it says to the rest of the table, I'd like to watch them call 2 cold cold w/a hand like AJ, KJ, JT or some other bs them limped in with that they have 6 outs against us.

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Its a live game. Calling with the right image will speak volumes, in a 20/40 game they wont be peeling with ATo, your only speaking to the SB and if anyone else calls you can safely bet your toast if they are even slightly observant. Raising forces you top play a big pot, this is not a big pot hand - you can control the action in this situation by just calling.

- I just looked over the thread, apparently Clark (almost) agrees with me. You guys should re-read what he said, I think his post was better than mine.

Re: 20/40 foxwoods, flop spot
 

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[ QUOTE ]
who cares what it says to the rest of the table, I'd like to watch them call 2 cold cold w/a hand like AJ, KJ, JT or some other bs them limped in with that they have 6 outs against us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a live game. Calling with the right image will speak volumes, in a 20/40 game they wont be peeling with ATo, your only speaking to the SB and if anyone else calls you can safely bet your toast if they are even slightly observant. Raising forces you top play a big pot, this is not a big pot hand - you can control the action in this situation by just calling.


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I disagree w/making this a big pot by raising the flop. I think you actually make it a smaller pot by raising b/c you will likely eliminate everyone but the sb. If you call, you're encouraging others and making it a big pot. PF the pot is already pretty big so if you can shrink down the competition and get it HU against sb, you can ensure that less bets goin on the turn and river.