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-   -   200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=508958)

Imrahil 09-25-2007 10:30 AM

200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
Last 2 times I've 4bet AK I've run into KK so I just want to make sure results aren't changing my thinking.

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $1/$2 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker Hand History Converter)

SB: $198.00
BB: $200.00
UTG: $294.50
MP: $303.15
Hero (CO): $200.00
BTN: $363.75

Reads: <font color="blue">Villain is 27/17/4 over 160 hands. No history between us and I've been playing tight.</font>

Preflop: Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $6.00</font>, MP folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $24.00</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">UTG raises to $62.00</font>, Hero?

VPIP100 09-25-2007 10:34 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
I like a fold here, hes UTG and he says he beats your tight range.

Vavavoom 09-25-2007 11:00 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
Do u ever smoothcall AK pf ?

Nielsio 09-25-2007 11:01 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
I prefer to do the 4-betting myself with AK. Here I just fold.

Nielsio 09-25-2007 11:01 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
I also don't see why you'd reraise so big.

sightless 09-25-2007 11:03 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
fold to pf 4bet vs UTG
and yeah dont raise this big pf

Unknown Soldier 09-25-2007 11:04 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
why isnt this raise size fine?

dirtylobster 09-25-2007 11:13 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
You have position.

dirtylobster 09-25-2007 11:13 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
How much would you raise from SB?

Spy Dog 09-25-2007 11:27 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
[ QUOTE ]
Do u ever smoothcall AK pf ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I like a smoothcall in position.

Jay Riall 09-25-2007 11:37 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
[ QUOTE ]
why isnt this raise size fine?

[/ QUOTE ]

More likely to to force villain to continue with a much, much tighter range. I personally would call/4bet much looser if he made it $20 or so.

Imrahil 09-25-2007 11:39 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
I'm controlling his implied odds based on his raise size. If he raised to $4 pf raising to $12 would be pretty bad because he'd be able to call w/ basically ATC.

Jay Riall 09-25-2007 11:40 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm controlling his implied odds based on his raise size. If he raised to $4 pf raising to $12 would be pretty bad because he'd be able to call w/ basically ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...

Imrahil 09-25-2007 11:54 AM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm controlling his implied odds based on his raise size. If he raised to $4 pf raising to $12 would be pretty bad because he'd be able to call w/ basically ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he'd be getting 20 to 1 odds on a call so he'd be making the right play by calling w/ a PP.

RainbowBright 09-25-2007 12:28 PM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm controlling his implied odds based on his raise size. If he raised to $4 pf raising to $12 would be pretty bad because he'd be able to call w/ basically ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think either one of you are making a compelling argument. If you raise large and he only calls you with a range that has you crushed than although you will be making money preflop, you will be losing quite a bit of money with your high % CB.

On the other hand, if you make a small raise and Villain calls with a wide range of hands and then makes moves or doesn't fold often postflop, then their are flaws in your plan.

The point being is that 3-betting makes alot more sense if the Villain is exploitable.

Of course, you can 3-bet preflop with AK for Value, but it might not be the highest EV play (of course it could be). 3-betting preflop with AK makes alot of sense if the Villain will call with hands you have dominated like AK or AQ. Or if the Villain will call with all pairs and fold unless he makes a set. etc...
On the other hand, it doesn't make alot of sense, if the Villain will make alot of moves on the flop. Or if the Villain is stubborn with alot of hands. Or if the Villan's calling range matches up well against your 3-betting range.

Lordy 09-25-2007 12:40 PM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm controlling his implied odds based on his raise size. If he raised to $4 pf raising to $12 would be pretty bad because he'd be able to call w/ basically ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he'd be getting 20 to 1 odds on a call so he'd be making the right play by calling w/ a PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be cutting down his implied odds by having wider 3-betting ranges, not by raising so big that he can't call without JJ+/AK.

Imrahil 09-25-2007 12:55 PM

Re: 200NL- Uninteresting PF spot w/ AK
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm controlling his implied odds based on his raise size. If he raised to $4 pf raising to $12 would be pretty bad because he'd be able to call w/ basically ATC.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he'd be getting 20 to 1 odds on a call so he'd be making the right play by calling w/ a PP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be cutting down his implied odds by having wider 3-betting ranges, not by raising so big that he can't call without JJ+/AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if someone raises to $4 pf what's the correct amount to 3bet? It shouldn't be just 3x any raise ammount. We're raising for a few reason but one is to build a pot and to make him pay to draw out on us. Obviously raising to $12 isn't going to accomplish much and raising 3x any raise is just robotic and doesn't take anything into account.

I don't believe raising to $24 instead of $20 is going to make a large difference in what he calls me with. But when these donks call w/ their 22 it's even more of a mistake calling $18 instead of $14.

Also, what is everyone's 3-betting range for an UTG TAG PF raiser?


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