Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

There's been a lot of noise recently about the whole shortstacker thang.

Although I generally play with a full stack, I for one have no stance either way on what seems to me to be an entirely legitimate and possibly profitable approach to the game.

So, I ask you, how do I go about shortstacking effectively? There seem to be several folks out there that are making money and I'd like to know how it's done, if they care to share.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Cry Me A River

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post12206550

Shhh.... Just dont say it was me that told you.

Ed Millers "Getting Started in Holdem" has a short stack chapter which is considered to be the original source of the strategy.

I have used it sometimes when I need to clear a bonus or top up FPP to get silverstar.

Its profitable but I dont play NL25 for profit I play for fun and to learn, shortstacking doesnt achieve either of these IMO.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

Actually ratholing is mentioned a lot by the die shortstacker movement. Maybe because I'm non-US and play Ongme mostly, but ratholing is not allowed, ie there's like a 2 hour cool off before you can return with less than you left with and there simply aren't enough tables at any level to keep moving around (except maybe NL25 on a Saturday).

But seriously, is there some way to make money from ss-ing other than uber-multitabling for 1/BB a year or for rakeback?

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

No, you can't win 4ptbb/100 or whatever shortstacking if thats what you're asking.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

Thanks for the links. I'm interested in the subject too. I tried SS'ing last weekend as I wanted to try 6-max but without risking any money. The variance seems to be high though.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

If you play 6max and SS you better know wtf you're doing. Its a higher winrate for sure, but only if you're good. I get killed when I SS 6 max. Down 24 BI lifetime.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

Mind you this is NL10 that I'm talking about...

I bought in twice with small amounts. Always got it in good (or with overs against small pair). Funnily both times I doubled up twice and on the third time got sucked out. I think both times villain called with flopped bottom pair and hit trips on river. Got huge amounts of action with my good cards. Didn't really know any strategy, just raised a lot PF - like half stack if 10 or 20BB deep or pushed if there was a raise in front of me. This was NL10 though, and there were a lot of villains who didn't have a clue what they were doing.

Later I bought in for 40BB to see if it makes a difference, someone called AI with AT against my AK pre-flop. Those games sure seem juicy, but I'd hate to switch since I so like this FR forum [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

Don't worry, I seriously doubt there'll ever me a dedicated SHORTSTACK forum.


Though having said that, I'm sure all the SS strats I know of are still on the tip of the iceberg in terms of sophistication. After all, SS is a much simpler game than fullstack, and I bet a research team could come up with something that can beat any game for some serious bb/100.

But I could be wrong.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

I mean having to leave for the 6-max forum [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] It was crazy, the tables were deeper than many of the FR-tables and often the average pot was bigger than in FR. Those people seemed to get All-in with almost any holding.

I have no plans on changing my game to strictly SS, but I'm keeping it as an option to bonus whore and to take shots at higher levels to get a feel for the game while keeping my own play as simple as possible.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

I play 40BB most of the time, and i am able to get just short of 3BB/100. I very much doubt you could exceed more than 1.5BB/100 shortstacking (20BB)any non-micro limit.
And in the micro limits you wouldn't want to do that anyway as you could get a much better winrate by full stacking

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry, I seriously doubt there'll ever me a dedicated SHORTSTACK forum.


Though having said that, I'm sure all the SS strats I know of are still on the tip of the iceberg in terms of sophistication. After all, SS is a much simpler game than fullstack, and I bet a research team could come up with something that can beat any game for some serious bb/100.

But I could be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could we maybe get a forum that only some could read? Kind of like the mod forum. I'd be all for diebitter, MT2R, imsa, pete, ski, myself and the few others to get in on that.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

Why the big secret? Seriously, I don't get the hating part of this, shortstacking is a totally legit subset of FR as far as I can judge from the (by the way thanks very much) extremely helpful links posted here.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't worry, I seriously doubt there'll ever me a dedicated SHORTSTACK forum.


Though having said that, I'm sure all the SS strats I know of are still on the tip of the iceberg in terms of sophistication. After all, SS is a much simpler game than fullstack, and I bet a research team could come up with something that can beat any game for some serious bb/100.

But I could be wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could we maybe get a forum that only some could read? Kind of like the mod forum. I'd be all for diebitter, MT2R, imsa, pete, ski, myself and the few others to get in on that.

[/ QUOTE ]


No not really, but if you guys seriously want a shortstack forum, put a case together and either pm Mat Sklansky directly, or post it in ATF for discussion. I'd love to see a specific place for Short Stack Discussion actually.

I think the mod of this forum would clearly and rigorously tempban any asshats who came in to rank shortstackers. I'd be willing to do that, even if it's temporary to get it off the ground and make sure what's expected - then one of the other SSers could take over.


If that doesn't happen, I may consider a special ringbound thread in this forum which has special rules (you come in and rank SSers, you get suspended) - but being restricted to a single thread really isn't a great way to go.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

I don't think that would be good Diebitter. Most of the SSers are reluctant to discuss strategy of any kind to those who don't have valid input of their own. Opening it up to the public would be pretty bad in the eyes of most of the shortstackers I know. Personally, I only discuss specific strat and hands with a friend of mine that I know irl.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

well you can ask Mat S., but I doubt he'd entertain the idea.

He might though.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

wouldn't work

most shortstackers don't even share with each other outside of one or two people

cannot imagine them sharing with a whole public forum of lurkers and opponents

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

all ss forum thread titles-

fold preflop?

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

I think the next FR AIM Chat (We haven't had one in a while) should be about shortstacking?

Ill glady get this up and running in the next few days and set up a time, and maybe we can all chat one night and discuss shortstacking.

I would love to chat w/ diebitter, CDL, and MTT2R as well as many others about SS'ing.

Ill make a post in the FR AIM CHAT thread in a few and see if i can round up some interest.

Ideally we would be discussing SS'ing concepts and ideas, it will be a pro SS chat, and hopefully those who wish to learn more about ss'ing and those of us who already know a fair ammount can all talk together and maybe revolutionize some [censored] [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why the big secret? Seriously, I don't get the hating part of this, shortstacking is a totally legit subset of FR as far as I can judge from the (by the way thanks very much) extremely helpful links posted here.

[/ QUOTE ]

its the ratholing that sucks

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

I have absolutely no idea how aim works.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have absolutely no idea how aim works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto, or someone has already stolen my email address as an aim name.


AOL and AIM were like the worst things you could install on your computer when I was in college. infinity annoying spyware,desktop icons..... Like trying to get rid of herpes uninstalling all that stuff.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have absolutely no idea how aim works.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto, or someone has already stolen my email address as an aim name.


AOL and AIM were like the worst things you could install on your computer when I was in college. infinity annoying spyware,desktop icons..... Like trying to get rid of herpes uninstalling all that stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here Id like to be involved in the chat, what software do you use?
Id like the non-herpes version though.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

AIM has some advertising but it's not horrible.

If you want to go with something clean, go with Trillian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillia...ging_client%29

It doesn't quite have all the features of AIM, but for basic chat functions it should be fine.

It's all really simple to use.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

I like 25 BB for shortstacking.
Assume you always have your full 25BB.
You will see 150 Hands until you loose 25BB in Blinds.
You'll get:
AA or KK once in this time.
AK 3 times. One of those will flop TPTK.
AQ 3 times.

So you have one AA/KK, one hit w/ AK and one w/ AQ.
Well ... now it's getting tricky. How often do you get all in preflop w/ AA/KK and postflop w/ Toppair hands?

Getting all in w/ AA or KK everytime is not enough because you only win about 80% of the time. So you need to win w/ the toppair hands too.

Beware of getting all in preflop w/ QQ in smallstake games. If villians range is {AA, KK, AK, AQ, JJ} you are a coinflip against him. If his range doesn't include JJ and AQ you'll loose in the long run.

I don't like SSS (short stack strategy) though. I tryed it for ~10k hands and it's no fun. And being a good 100BB player is more +EV. Being a good shortstacker is good for tournaments and against other shortstackers. Although most shortstack players are only donks who don't want to loose too much money at once.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

NLTAP has a short but good discussion of short stack play.

Re: Please teach me the ways of the shortstacker
 

[ QUOTE ]
AIM has some advertising but it's not horrible.

If you want to go with something clean, go with Trillian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trillia...ging_client%29

It doesn't quite have all the features of AIM, but for basic chat functions it should be fine.

It's all really simple to use.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can also try Pidgin (ex GAIM). This is a multi protocl chat client (works with MSN, ICQ, Yahoo etc etc).

Plus : it's an open source program.

Google for Pidgin