KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

Button ($200)
SB ($38)
BB ($271.75)
UTG ($191.30)
<font color="#C00000">MP ($493.85)</font>
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($474.25)</font>

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $6</font>, MP calls $6, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $26</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls $20, MP calls $20.

Flop: ($81) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $64</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $218</font>, Hero ???

Villain is Bri-C. History-He may think I am generally a bit of a weak-tight player but with donk tendencies after turning 2 pair vs his overpair to stack him. He has since worked his stack up in a relatively short space of time. He is 26/18/2.4 over 800 hands. On the flop he has only folded to 30% of continuation bets and raises 40% of them. However, he has given the impression that he is a thinking LAG. What's my play on the flop?

I'm off to bed now but will check in with this in the morning.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

He raises 40% of cbets? ZOMG jam. Board is too draw-heavy to F around, and he will call with worse.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

jam it in

of course last time i did this for 2 stacks villain had 86 obv... but still

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

bump

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

Pretty standard fold IMO. Villain's range (set, big draw, 2pr) has you crushed

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

would the villian call UTG raise with 99 and 77 or rr? Does UTG's image factor in at all? IMO in spots like this jamming it against a thinking lag that you have aggressive history against seems standard

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

235 bbs deep I actually don't hate folding. Most solid players (and I think he's one) play pretty reasonably in big deep rr pots. I don't like shoving almost 200bbs in on the flop hoping he has a draw when it's very clear to him that you should have a big hand.

basically he probably has a good idea of what you have yet he's still putting in 100bbs on the flop.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

just shove now

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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basically he probably has a good idea of what you have yet he's still putting in 100bbs on the flop.

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the better and worse villain is the less this is a concern

the more mediocre he is the more worrisome it is

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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Pretty standard fold IMO. Villain's range (set, big draw, 2pr) has you crushed

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did you not read the OP?

this is an easy shove given your read

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

fold.

his line:
cold calls pf raise
cold calls 3 bet after UTG flat called.

his range: 99,55,77,98ss

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold.

his line:
cold calls pf raise
cold calls 3 bet after UTG flat called.

his range: 99,55,77,98ss

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i hope this is a joke

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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Pretty standard fold IMO. Villain's range (set, big draw, 2pr) has you crushed

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did you not read the OP?

this is an easy shove given your read

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I read OP. Villain is a thinking LAG capable of playing back light. LIke most thinking LAGS, when the money goes in, they have a killer hand. I think villain's likely range is set&gt;pair+draw&gt;A hi draw&gt;2 pair
99, 77, 55 98ss, 910ss, A10ss+, heavily weighted towards sets

Fold.

You say shove. What is villain's range and why is shove the best play?

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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Pretty standard fold IMO. Villain's range (set, big draw, 2pr) has you crushed

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did you not read the OP?

this is an easy shove given your read

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I read OP. Villain is a thinking LAG capable of playing back light. LIke most thinking LAGS, when the money goes in, they have a killer hand. I think villain's likely range is set&gt;pair+draw&gt;A hi draw&gt;2 pair
99, 77, 55 98ss, 910ss, A10ss+, heavily weighted towards sets

Fold.

You say shove. What is villain's range and why is shove the best play?

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villain folds to cbets 30% of the time, and raises them 40% of the time........ thats a ton of the time, his range includes 66 88 and draws, as well as potentially other over pairs (that he is playing poorly). it also includes hands that you are behind, but this guy is just too aggressive to fold here IMO

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

Villain's range does NOT include 66, 88, and other overpairs. He is a thinking LAG capable of playing back in small pots but when pots get big he doesnt start blindly shoving marginal pairs. Recognizing this will save/win you alot of money.

Also, this pot is 3b 3 ways, so he is NOT playing back lightly to flop bets.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

i thought villain was hudge fish for some reason

yeah prob fold then... didn't see the thinking part in front of LAG

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFfffffffffffffffffffffff fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffold

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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Villain's range does NOT include 66, 88, and other overpairs. He is a thinking LAG capable of playing back in small pots but when pots get big he doesnt start blindly shoving marginal pairs. Recognizing this will save/win you alot of money.

Also, this pot is 3b 3 ways, so he is NOT playing back lightly to flop bets.

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he may very well think that he can put you off of hands, and 66/88 would be semi bluffs so i think they can be in his range, he may not always do this with 88/66 but in a pokerstove id put some combos in his range

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

No man. No.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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No man. No.

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alright, i can see an argument for folding, and i understand what you are saying, but 9s8s, 77,55,99 is too tight

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

88 and 66 would be super ugly here

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

'he has given the impression that he is a thinking LAG'

and 'he is a solid, thinking lag'

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

Yeah my initial thoughts were to muck this, but it really depends on what level I give him credit for being on. At $200nl he probably isn't thinking too high, so thats why I'd lean towards a fold. Shoving isn't bad either, it's pretty close either way.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

A muck here is good. I'm sure most of his raise-cbet stats come from single raised pots with only two players where the cbettors range is wide. Here, he probably has a set very often.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

My thinking:

I felt villain was most likely to lead out with a set/made straight. He check raised me big so he has some sort of hand. With our history and his probable read on me I felt he was most likely making his raise that large with a big draw, so I shoved. He instacalled with J9 spades.

I need to work on my deepstack game, cos this hand had me really unsure what the hell to do. Would it ever be worth checking the flop against this sort of player or is that too weak?

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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fold.

his line:
cold calls pf raise
cold calls 3 bet after UTG flat called.

his range: 99,55,77,98ss

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i hope this is a joke

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ManChild ... that is his range. even if you open it up a bit you would be flipping or slightly behind i would imagine. (I don't have poker stove on hand) but why are you wanting to get your stack in here when there are much much better spots.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

ya everyone is giving waaayyyy too much credit to the raises 40% of c-bets. We're 200bb's deep and 3-way, no way he gets out of line here too often. Either we're crushed or we're flipping. I fold.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

That may be the range you put him on but that range sucks ass. No overpairs? No other FDs? Lots of bad players play QQ-TT this way.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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That may be the range you put him on but that range sucks ass. No overpairs? No other FDs? Lots of bad players play QQ-TT this way.

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I'm willing to bet this guy never has an overpair, and his FDs all include SDs, 1 over, or a pair.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

I think i check this flop to control the pot size since i hate it if we get c/r'ed. maybe I'm influenced by the results but I know I've checked in spots like these before.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

shove. he raises CBets 40% of the time. he probably raises A9, TT, 88, etc

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

Just shoving in hoping he's raising TT or something isn't very good. You've gotta think about what his calling range is too since there's over 100bbs left to play. Basically by shoving a full 100bbs he gets to fold his bad hands and only call when you're crushed or flipping, so you're laying yourself a pretty bad price to win what's currently in the pot.

Mindlessly shoving here might be correct in this spot, but if you're doing it often you're probably not playing a deep stack correctly. Overpairs go way down in value once you get over 200bbs, and position becomes even more important.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

villain is getting 3-1 in this spot and the board is drawy. hero can easily have AsKsor something. I think villain calls with worse

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

WTF. We're like 250bb deep here. Villain's raises cbet % has nothing to do with this hand in this situation. The best we can hope for is a race. Such an easy fold.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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WTF. We're like 250bb deep here and its a 3bet pot. Villain's raises cbet % has nothing to do with this hand in this situation. The best we can hope for is a race. Such an easy fold.

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FYP. i think thats pretty important.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

I think it is a rather tough spot, as you are deep.

1 thing i feel people are neglecting tho, is the size of his flop-raise. It tells me he has a hand he will not fold, even if he should be slightly behind. If his hand is made, i am sure he would make a raise that would drag along AA/KK (which he is most likely putting you on, judging from his play) as you are both deep. Perhaps even a flat call, as he can only be worried about AsKs. As played, i go broke with KK every time. I feel he knows that you know this flop have hit his calling range, and if happy with the pot right here and now. Reviewing the hand again, i think villain could play the flop much better, by betting out instead and coming back over the top if you apply pressure.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

I think its a fold but its probably exploitable cause KK in close to the top of our range here.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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I think it is a rather tough spot, as you are deep.

1 thing i feel people are neglecting tho, is the size of his flop-raise. It tells me he has a hand he will not fold, even if he should be slightly behind. If his hand is made, i am sure he would make a raise that would drag along AA/KK (which he is most likely putting you on, judging from his play) as you are both deep. Perhaps even a flat call, as he can only be worried about AsKs. As played, i go broke with KK every time. I feel he knows that you know this flop have hit his calling range, and if happy with the pot right here and now. Reviewing the hand again, i think villain could play the flop much better, by betting out instead and coming back over the top if you apply pressure.

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not a bad point about raise size. I wouldn't want to shove purely b/c of it but his sizing does look more like a big draw hand.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

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That may be the range you put him on but that range sucks ass. No overpairs? No other FDs? Lots of bad players play QQ-TT this way.

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I'm willing to bet this guy never has an overpair, and his FDs all include SDs, 1 over, or a pair.

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If you are willing to bet that, then a good, thinking LAG should be raising ATC here. Plus note that Hero puts his own image as being weak-tight.

As for the 40%, of course I don't think that exact number is valid here, but it shows that he is willing to make a play at a pot with extraordinary regularity, which is why I jam. I think we're about 50% all told, sometimes crushed but sometimes crushing and often flipping, and with the pot odds this seems like a very obvious play to me.

For anyone saying instamuck, LOL. If I do decide to muck against this type of player, it is with extreme reluctance.

Re: KK Deep- Villain\'s fold button appears to be broken
 

lol at everyone saying shove

shove is such a huge leak that it's not funny